Gender Free/Neutral Tees

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fenwayrich

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Can anyone explain precisely what this means? My club's red tees are rated for both men and women. Our yellow course is only just over 6,000 yards and we are likely to get those tees rated for ladies as well, not sure why we didn’t originally. However, one of our committee members is of the opinion that gender neutrality means that the par and stroke index of each hole must be the same for both sexes. Our red course is Par 71 for men and 73 for women, with different stroke indices, so he is proposing we build new tees to shorten two holes and equalize par, and also that we adopt the same stroke index.

This doesn’t seem right. The fact that there are different Slope and Course ratings off the same set of tees leads to this conclusion. Our red course is 68.3 (Slope 118) for men, 73.3 (Slope 132) for women. Surely, gender neutrality means that every tee should be rated so both men and women can have a competitive game off tees with a length that is suitable for their level of ability and the distance they hit the ball? Par is irrelevant for handicap purposes and where it counts in a competition (e.g Stableford) this is accounted for in the Playing Handicap adjustments, as is the Course Rating and Slope.

Our lady members have been surveyed and are quite happy with the length of the course off the red tees. Hardly any of our men have taken the plunge and reducing the length of the course even further seems like a step in the wrong direction. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Honestly think that tees should be a preference on the person playing/competition set rather than gender.

For example we have a lot of young (11-15) juniors that play off in the low hcp figures that can hold their own off the back tees and will play off them instead of the reds. In contrast we have adults that struggle to play off the back tees as well. Likewise with the ladies.
 
All our tees are rated for men and women, we have even added another tee in front of the ladies, but the ladies refuse to use them even though it would make the course a bit easier for them. The positive has been lots of seniors and even the reg seniors section games midweek are now played from these tees. This has def helped some of these guys carry on playing as the normal tees the course is just too long now for some.
 
patricks148 said:
All our tees are rated for men and women, we have even added another tee in front of the ladies, but the ladies refuse to use them even though it would make the course a bit easier for them. The positive has been lots of seniors and even the reg seniors section games midweek are now played from these tees. This has def helped some of these guys carry on playing as the normal tees the course is just too long now for some.
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Are they rated separately? Meaning the Red tees have a rating (or whatever the term is now) for men and a different one for ladies? I think that is the point being made. The person at the OP's course wants one rating per tee, not a rating for men and a different one for Ladies.

For what it's worth, I think the OP is correct in his reading of tee ratings and his committee member is wrong.

I could be entirely wrong in my reading of course :D
 
Lord Tyrion said:
Are they rated separately? Meaning the Red tees have a rating (or whatever the term is now) for men and a different one for ladies? I think that is the point being made. The person at the OP's course wants one rating per tee, not a rating for men and a different one for Ladies.

For what it's worth, I think the OP is correct in his reading of tee ratings and his committee member is wrong.

I could be entirely wrong in my reading of course :D
Click to expand...
Yes All tees rated separately, can't remember off hand but there is a 5 shot diff in the par off the greens which is what the old red tee (ladies) I'm not sure the rating per tee is possible, well not without some sort of adjustment. We have 5 holes that are par 4 for men and par 5 for ladies. Even the 3 par 5, off the green tees are all easily reachable even for me a relatively short hitter. I remember playing nairn off the ladies tees with a scratch player, me and two other single digit players, we all shot under par gross with ease, the scratch guy being 8 under gross of the ladies par.
 
fenwayrich said:
Can anyone explain precisely what this means? My club's red tees are rated for both men and women. Our yellow course is only just over 6,000 yards and we are likely to get those tees rated for ladies as well, not sure why we didn’t originally. However, one of our committee members is of the opinion that gender neutrality means that the par and stroke index of each hole must be the same for both sexes. Our red course is Par 71 for men and 73 for women, with different stroke indices, so he is proposing we build new tees to shorten two holes and equalize par, and also that we adopt the same stroke index.

This doesn’t seem right. The fact that there are different Slope and Course ratings off the same set of tees leads to this conclusion. Our red course is 68.3 (Slope 118) for men, 73.3 (Slope 132) for women. Surely, gender neutrality means that every tee should be rated so both men and women can have a competitive game off tees with a length that is suitable for their level of ability and the distance they hit the ball? Par is irrelevant for handicap purposes and where it counts in a competition (e.g Stableford) this is accounted for in the Playing Handicap adjustments, as is the Course Rating and Slope.

Our lady members have been surveyed and are quite happy with the length of the course off the red tees. Hardly any of our men have taken the plunge and reducing the length of the course even further seems like a step in the wrong direction. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Gender neutrality simply means that sets of tees are rated for both men and women with regards to handicapping, so everyone can play from tees of their choice (hopefully the ones that suit their ability), nothing more. There is absolutely no requirement for the pars (or the stroke indexes) to be the same for men and women.

If (when) we ever get a handicap system that disregards sex/gender, then such questions would become redundant.
 
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Effectively, the gender neutral rating is already done - it is the men's rating, and anyone playing those tees plays off the same par, cr, and slope. As no distinction is made between the gender of those playing those tees, the scratch rating is taken from the level of the best players playing that course, which will be the males. That women cannot compete in that scenario is simply a fact of life - but you cannot both have your gender equality cake, and eat it.

So your committee member already has that rating they are requesting.
 
patricks148 said:
Yes All tees rated separately, can't remember off hand but there is a 5 shot diff in the par off the greens which is what the old red tee (ladies) I'm not sure the rating per tee is possible, well not without some sort of adjustment. We have 5 holes that are par 4 for men and par 5 for ladies. Even the 3 par 5, off the green tees are all easily reachable even for me a relatively short hitter. I remember playing nairn off the ladies tees with a scratch player, me and two other single digit players, we all shot under par gross with ease, the scratch guy being 8 under gross of the ladies par.
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Par is not part of the rating system. It is decided by the club with recommendations in the WHS manual. See Appendix F.
Incidentally these are standard round the world whereas previously CONGU, USGA etc made their own recommendations.
 
Why wouldnt they be gender neutral? Having a certain par for a gender is ridiculous, it means gandicaps can never be compared across genders. Surely only one course rating should be applied?

Currently, one person in a household can play off scratch and beat another player off scratch in the same household with the same score round the same course because they are a different gender. If thats not a description of 'NOT' gender neutral then i dont know what is...
 
Backsticks said:
Effectively, the gender neutral rating is already done - it is the men's rating, and anyone playing those tees plays off the same par, cr, and slope. As no distinction is made between the gender of those playing those tees, the scratch rating is taken from the level of the best players playing that course, which will be the males. That women cannot compete in that scenario is simply a fact of life - but you cannot both have your gender equality cake, and eat it.

So your committee member already has that rating they are requesting.
Click to expand...
No they don't. If the tees are not rated for women, they would be unable to calculate their Course Handicap - they absolutely would not use the men's ratings. Women would only play from those tees using women's ratings (as that is what their index would be based on) and pars, while men would use the men's ratings (as that is what their index would be based on) and pars; if playing in the same competition or match, there would also be a mixed tee adjustment to make the strokes received equitable.

To repeat myself... "gender neutrality" in this context means that the tees are rated for both men and women, nothing more.
 
sweaty sock said:
Why wouldnt they be gender neutral? Having a certain par for a gender is ridiculous, it means gandicaps can never be compared across genders. Surely only one course rating should be applied?

Currently, one person in a household can play off scratch and beat another player off scratch in the same household with the same score round the same course because they are a different gender. If thats not a description of 'NOT' gender neutral then i dont know what is...
Click to expand...
I guess it means that gender neutral tees is not the correct term to be used.

Yes, I agree, handicaps across genders can not be compared. You can only compare when all factors are equal.
 
fenwayrich said:
Can anyone explain precisely what this means? My club's red tees are rated for both men and women. Our yellow course is only just over 6,000 yards and we are likely to get those tees rated for ladies as well, not sure why we didn’t originally. However, one of our committee members is of the opinion that gender neutrality means that the par and stroke index of each hole must be the same for both sexes. Our red course is Par 71 for men and 73 for women, with different stroke indices, so he is proposing we build new tees to shorten two holes and equalize par, and also that we adopt the same stroke index.

This doesn’t seem right. The fact that there are different Slope and Course ratings off the same set of tees leads to this conclusion. Our red course is 68.3 (Slope 118) for men, 73.3 (Slope 132) for women. Surely, gender neutrality means that every tee should be rated so both men and women can have a competitive game off tees with a length that is suitable for their level of ability and the distance they hit the ball? Par is irrelevant for handicap purposes and where it counts in a competition (e.g Stableford) this is accounted for in the Playing Handicap adjustments, as is the Course Rating and Slope.

Our lady members have been surveyed and are quite happy with the length of the course off the red tees. Hardly any of our men have taken the plunge and reducing the length of the course even further seems like a step in the wrong direction. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Re the bold bit...He's wrong!
 
Surely gender neutral means the tee is rated… end of. It should not be rated for men and women separately as this goes against the whole gender neutral arguement.
 
Oddsocks said:
Surely gender neutral means the tee is rated… end of. It should not be rated for men and women separately as this goes against the whole gender neutral arguement.
Click to expand...

That's right, but of course men and women are different, so the same tee is rated separately for men and women. I believe the R&A and USGA have aligned on criteria for transgender golfers, but where does leave non-binary golfers?
 
To me the main point about having a set of tees rated for both sexes means that you can have a comp off one set of the tees only. Quickly off the top of my head this means no need for course rating adjustment shots as it is already done in the course and slope ratings.
 
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