Back pin = front tee / front pin = back tee: Handicapping requirement for consistent hole length?

[rulefan]

The PM is the basic reference point.
The front of a TA should not be more than 2 yards in front of that PM
A TA is 2 CL from front to back
The back of a TA should not be more than 4 yards further back than the back of the TA
The PM should be more than 4 yards further back than the back of the TA

Play is L to R

<---------------- 4 yards ---------------><-------TA 2 cl --------><-- 2 yards -->

I guess that 4 yds behind is designed to give back swing space and 2 yds in front is to give follow through space and ensure that players won't fall off a cliff or steep slope.

Note the use of should rather than must.


Another correction

 

[Neilds]

I still don't understand it. That means the the teeing area can't actually be anywhere near the permanent markers!

I think the teeing area referred to here is the big flat area and not the 2 club area

 

[rulefan]

I think the teeing area referred to here is the big flat area and not the 2 club area

I doubt the measuring company or certificate would have used the defined term Teeing Area to refer to any other piece of ground (eg tee box).
Although pre 2020 the term was Teeing Ground, the certificate I am looking at is dated October 2023

 

[jim8flog]

Many courses used to set the 'back' tees as far back as they could , in order to claim (boast) that a) theirs's was longer than other local course and b) some hole lengths would influence the course par and make it seem like a 'championship' course.
The new course rating and new table for par allocation has partially reduced that 'attraction' but some (mine included) have realised that not leaving 10 yards behind the fixed marker can reduce the issue of churned up teeing areas.
When I have been doing the course set up for many county events, I have often found it difficult to find a decent teeing area for many par 3s in particular.

I remember one of the things that was supposed to happen pre WHS was that when rerating took place if the course raters found that the fixed markers were right at the back of a tee they were going to instruct the club to move the fixed marker to allow for the ten yards between it and the back of the tee.

Realisticly if we were to stick to the 10yard rule we have tees where areas would simply not be use. We have several tees which are only just wide enough to have a tee area but have plenty of length due the nature of the ground.

Building new tees on a couple of our par 3s was taken as a priority due the problems of wear, adding more width to them.

 

[Alan Clifford]

The back of a TA should not be more than 4 yards further back than the back of the TA

I've lost it completely now.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I think the teeing area referred to here is the big flat area and not the 2 club area

Oh OK. Is this area, which is not the teeing area, defined in any way in the rules, such as big flat area or mown grass? I couldn't find any definitions.

 

[mjf]

'Teeing area' definition from the USGA (https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-an...cations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions):

---

Teeing Area​

The area the player must play from in starting the hole they are playing.

The teeing area is a rectangle that is two club-lengths deep where:

• The front edge is defined by the line between the forward-most points of two tee-markers set by the Committee, and
• The side edges are defined by the lines back from the outside points of the tee-markers.

The teeing area is one of the five defined areas of the course.

All other teeing locations on the course (whether on the same hole or any other hole) are part of the general area.
---


So I guess it really only matters where the tee-markers are.

 

[rulefan]

I've lost it completely now.

My apologies once again. My cut'n paste technique needs sorting out

The back of a TA should not be more than 4 yards further back than the back of the TA
The PM should be more than 4 yards further back than the back of the TA

See diagram in #21

Play is L to R

<---------------- 4 yards ---------------><-------TA 2 cl --------><-- 2 yards -->

 

[rulefan]

All other teeing locations on the course (whether on the same hole or any other hole) are part of the general area.

As it is part of the General Area it could qualify for Preferred Lies

 

[Alan Clifford]

So, going back to the first post, it seems that there doesn't need to be two yards of flat grass behind the tee markers if the permanent markers are in such a position as to allow such a situation.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Instructions to greenkeeper. (I can genuinely only hope that I have interpreted this correctly)

1.
Measure backwards 4 yards from the permanent marker and then 2 club lengths forwards.
You should not put the tee-markers any further back than this.
2.
Measure forwards 2 yards and 2 club lengths from the permanent marker.
You should not put the tee-markers any further forward than this.


I shall be playing a social game from our yellow tees today. I shall take note of non-compliance.
I doubt number 1 will be infringed, but a few cases of number 2 infringement might be noted.
Never really cared much about this before. We all play the same course no matter where the tee markers are placed on the day.

 

[Slab]

Instructions to greenkeeper. (I can genuinely only hope that I have interpreted this correctly)

1.
Measure backwards 4 yards from the permanent marker and then 2 club lengths forwards.
You should not put the tee-markers any further back than this.
2.
Measure forwards 2 yards and 2 club lengths from the permanent marker.
You should not put the tee-markers any further forward than this.


I shall be playing a social game from our yellow tees today. I shall take note of non-compliance.
I doubt number 1 will be infringed, but a few cases of number 2 infringement might be noted.
Never really cared much about this before. We all play the same course no matter where the tee markers are placed on the day.

Erm I don't think you have

 

[NearHull]

Instructions to greenkeeper. (I can genuinely only hope that I have interpreted this correctly)

1.
Measure backwards 4 yards from the permanent marker and then 2 club lengths forwards.
You should not put the tee-markers any further back than this.
2.
Measure forwards 2 yards and 2 club lengths from the permanent marker.
You should not put the tee-markers any further forward than this.


I shall be playing a social game from our yellow tees today. I shall take note of non-compliance.
I doubt number 1 will be infringed, but a few cases of number 2 infringement might be noted.
Never really cared much about this before. We all play the same course no matter where the tee markers are placed on the day.

Each daily tee may be up to 10yds forward or backwards of the permanent markers - so long as the total length of the course remains within 100yds of the rated course length.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Erm I don't think you have

What I suspected. I clearly need help.

1. How far back from the permanent maker may the tee markers be placed?
2. How far forward from the permanent marker may the tee markers be placed?

The "4 yards" and "2 yards" things have me bamboozled.

 

[Swango1980]

If a course is 105 yards more or less than the measured yardage of the course, can rounds be used for handicapping?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Each daily tee may be up to 10yds forward or backwards of the permanent markers - so long as the total length of the course remains within 100yds of the rated course length.

Now that is clear and easy to understand.

If a tee marker can be 10 yards back or 10 yards forward from the permanent marker, what is this "4 yards" and "2 yards" stuff about in relation to tee markers and permanent markers?

 

[jim8flog]

Now that is clear and easy to understand.

If a tee marker can be 10 yards back or 10 yards forward from the permanent marker, what is this "4 yards" and "2 yards" stuff about in relation to tee markers and permanent markers?

The important bit is 'can', the 4 and 2 yards is all about having sufficient room to stand safely and swing a club.

 

[Slab]

What I suspected. I clearly need help.

1. How far back from the permanent maker may the tee markers be placed?
2. How far forward from the permanent marker may the tee markers be placed?

The "4 yards" and "2 yards" things have me bamboozled.

Another thing to keep in mind is the use of 'should not' text being used instead of 'must not'
It's pretty easy for a club to find practical or operational justification to fall out with one or other part of these measurement instructions

(screengrab from R&A website)

 

[Neilds]

Now that is clear and easy to understand.

If a tee marker can be 10 yards back or 10 yards forward from the permanent marker, what is this "4 yards" and "2 yards" stuff about in relation to tee markers and permanent markers?

The permanent tee marker (stone) can not be within 4/2 yards of front/back of the big flat area - probably incorrectly called the teeing area in the book

 

[NearHull]

Another thing to keep in mind is the use of 'should not' text being used instead of 'must not'
It's pretty easy for a club to find practical or operational justification to fall out with one or other part of these measurement instructions

(screengrab from R&A website)

View attachment 54339

I think we have gone around this buoy a few times concerning the 10/100 yds and the must/should/can be a qualifying course for Handicap Submission. Noting that the above quoted extract is from the R&A, whilst handicap submissions governance comes from the National Authorities.