Segregation in Golf Clubs

[IanM]

Funnily enough D, I have a gripe about my own club which has no drawn events at all.... everyone plays with the same people every week and people are informally known by their "groups!" One lot moved from a course that closed nearly 30 years ago, and they are still known as the TP Group!

Last week, I deliberately went to play an hour later than usual and played with another "group" ... one haughty old guy asked if I was a new member... so I said "yes, I joined in 2009!"

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yeah I think you're right, sorry. So its become inclusive at weekends at the club but not yet through the week? I get it now

Although why would it be up to the women to need to let all groups participate in midweek? Did it work that way with weekend comps where men needed to let women/seniors/juniors in?

Didn't the club just decide; this is what we'll do and it applies to all days?
Although I suppose if the mens and wonens clubs are separate entities that share the same course I can see where that might be an issue if one club adopts a change and another doesn't but if its one club it should've been covered in the same change

Because the Ladies Competitions are looked after by the Ladies Committee - it’s a members club, the club can’t just change things it needs to go through Committee and if anything major goes through the membership

I was the one that started the ball rolling with the weekend comps - I went to Committee as my role of Comps Sec and recommended opening up all the weekend comps to all - it was accepted by all on the Committee. The President told the Lady Captain that in the future the Ladies would need move forward and open their comps for all members - but their committee won’t allow it and you can’t force them.

 

[clubchamp98]

Just using your post as its the first of a few saying similar, i.e ladies invited but don't want etc

Going back to the OP its the Why that's missing from the replies. Why don't ladies want to take part at certain clubs?

What is it that happens during a mens comp or a womens comp that means when the concept of a mixed field is touted, women don't want to play alongside men or men don't want to play alongside women?

Is it to do with the differing golfing ability, player behaviour, player attitude, integration, a simple misconception or belief or just a poorly thought out invitation strategy or something else entirely?
Could it be something as simple as communication i.e instead of 'opening up the mens comp so ladies can enter' The club really should have started a brand new mixed comp that's 100% inclusive for all, from the start. Rather than inviting a dozen or so women to 'join in' with the game that 120 guys already have going (your club may well have done this all correctly)

Should the mix comp be in addition to the separate comps, is it maybe that men might have to give up the lucrative Saturday AM slot to accommodate a large field mixed comp while women might not have to sacrifice anything


Why at some clubs do they not want to mix?




Edit: its easy to imagine that despite the best efforts of a committee, a portion of the membership can make it clear they don't really want a mixed field
Also its a doddle to invite someone out to dinner/trip etc in such a way as its not actually as appealing as it could be, simply to help illicit a negative response and low and behold the party that did the inviting can then claim the high ground when its not accepted (again, I am not suggested that happened at your club, just throwing it out for discussion)

Ours are mixed but ladies don’t want to play.
If we start looking for reasons then we will have a Sexist row on our hands.
We need the ladies on here to try and enlighten us.
Maybe they go to golf to get away from their men ,I know lots who go to get away from women.

 

[Slab]

Because the Ladies Competitions are looked after by the Ladies Committee - it’s a members club, the club can’t just change things it needs to go through Committee and if anything major goes through the membership

I was the one that started the ball rolling with the weekend comps - I went to Committee as my role of Comps Sec and recommended opening up all the weekend comps to all - it was accepted by all on the Committee. The President told the Lady Captain that in the future the Ladies would need move forward and open their comps for all members - but their committee won’t allow it and you can’t force them.

Appreciate it’ll need to go through committee, that’s what I meant by ‘club’ (poor wording on my part)

Just my own ignorance of your structure but I’m guessing then that there’s a mens committee, a ladies committee but also I suppose a club committee (that sits above both in terms of hierarchy) And it would need to be the club ‘top their’ committee that would ideally roll out such a change (if the membership are happy) and if thats the case its tough to understand how the ladies can push back and what justification they make

If it’s an initiative from the mens committee only (even if supported by the top committee) then while desirable & hoped for it to be reciprocated by the ladies committee it obviously can’t be stated as a requirement or can even be expected for the ladies to follow suit

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

In respect of the second comment, will take it at face value rather than a dig at me, written word can read harsh at times. And to answer the question, you are not orrect, I play with plenty of different people, so as an example between the 3/5 to the 7/6, I would have played with 13 people who are not my wife or son.

It wasn't a dig, just an observation and in it's context it seemed a strange thread for you to start I know you have played H4H in the past and played within your own group, my understanding of these types of event is to get to know others from the forum. I certainly have played with some great guys through these events (but not 70 or 20 year olds )

 

[clubchamp98]

I played with two “younger members” couple of weeks ago .
They hardly spoke all the way round and only got their noses out of their phones to play a shot.
Give me the seniors any day at least you can have a conversation with them.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Funnily enough D, I have a gripe about my own club which has no drawn events at all.... everyone plays with the same people every week and people are informally known by their "groups!" One lot moved from a course that closed nearly 30 years ago, and they are still known as the TP Group!

Last week, I deliberately went to play an hour later than usual and played with another "group" ... one haughty old guy asked if I was a new member... so I said "yes, I've joined in 2009!"

We still get this as in the summer you can roll up for things like the monthly medal and stableford and so you get some of the greedies all going out in their usual groups but for the majority, there is enough opportunity to go into the drawn part, with three distinct time sections on HDID you can choose from and the you'll get randomly drawn at a time within that slot (slot 1 - 7.30-8.30 slot 2 - 8.40-9.40 and slot 3 - 9.50-11.00). I guess being able to rock up later gives you the flexibility to still play but personally I'd like to see everyone enter as part of a drawn competition

 

[duncan mackie]

Ours are mixed but ladies don’t want to play.
If we start looking for reasons then we will have a Sexist row on our hands.
We need the ladies on here to try and enlighten us.
Maybe they go to golf to get away from their men ,I know lots who go to get away from women.

I think it's pretty much accepted that ladies play golf for a much wider range of reasons than men, and that as for men there was a relatively straight forward paradigm for play about 50 years ago (for which membership terms were developed) that has increasingly broken down over the years (good thing) but that that has led to a significantly fragmented demand amongst the ladies.
I would go as far as to say that there is almost more disagreement amongst ladies sections (or clubs) as to what they want than there is across the club as a whole in delivering it.
That's not to say that there isn't similar within the men's arena- comps v roll up, roll ups v booking, closed swindle group's v open club managed swindles - right up to society days v increased membership fees.
To be complete it's probably appropriate to include catering arrangements, how much sand in bunkers and fairway cutting heights.....
At times inwonder how anyone ever gets out and plays an enjoyable rounds of golf.🤔

 

[Deleted member 21258]

It wasn't a dig, just an observation and in it's context it seemed a strange thread for you to start I know you have played H4H in the past and played within your own group, my understanding of these types of event is to get to know others from the forum. I certainly have played with some great guys through these events (but not 70 or 20 year olds )

Hmm not sure about how to reply but anyway will confirm exact details.

H4H this year I am due to play in 'my own group' due to prior commitments that were prebooked before H4H was announced, which this year is a different time of year. I let Richart know and if there wasn't space then that wasn't a problem, thought it was helping to raise funds and if that is taken the wrong way, then pass. I just wish to support the charity as it does a lot of good.

Previous year I bought two guests(btw one was very last minute as people from the forum dropped out, so I helped to raise funds and replaced one person who dropped out at the last minutes), therefore last year I played with a lady member from liphook who we got paired up with by Richart. The previous year I bought one guest and played with Crow and TomC.

If you had been on the H4H day you would have seen (joke)

Been on other forum days, such as Woburn, Cooden, RSG, Royal Cinque Ports, Princes, Sunningdale, New Zealand, Turnberry, Conwy and bought a guest each time apart from RCP and on each occasion played with people from the forum. Organised a trip to Woburn and Conwy. Played with a few people from the forum on opens or guest days. Therefore again not quite correct in what you are saying.

Sorry if you or others feel that is perhaps treading on peoples toes and will bear it in mind in the future. To be a forum person, people now need to take part in the forum, turn up to days and come on their own, ha ha.

 

[clubchamp98]

I think it's pretty much accepted that ladies play golf for a much wider range of reasons than men, and that as for men there was a relatively straight forward paradigm for play about 50 years ago (for which membership terms were developed) that has increasingly broken down over the years (good thing) but that that has led to a significantly fragmented demand amongst the ladies.
I would go as far as to say that there is almost more disagreement amongst ladies sections (or clubs) as to what they want than there is across the club as a whole in delivering it.
That's not to say that there isn't similar within the men's arena- comps v roll up, roll ups v booking, closed swindle group's v open club managed swindles - right up to society days v increased membership fees.
To be complete it's probably appropriate to include catering arrangements, how much sand in bunkers and fairway cutting heights.....
At times inwonder how anyone ever gets out and plays an enjoyable rounds of golf.🤔

Totally agree.
Our comps are inclusive so if any sections don’t want to play they are missing out imo.
But that’s up to them, if they want to stay together they should be able to.
But as the OP said not disrupt other members by block booking so he can’t play that is wrong.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Hmm not sure about how to reply but anyway will confirm exact details.

H4H this year I am due to play in 'my own group' due to prior commitments that were prebooked before H4H was announced, which this year is a different time of year. I let Richart know and if there wasn't space then that wasn't a problem, thought it was helping to raise funds and if that is taken the wrong way, then pass. I just wish to support the charity as it does a lot of good.

Previous year I bought two guests(btw one was very last minute as people from the forum dropped out, so I helped to raise funds and replaced one person who dropped out at the last minutes), therefore last year I played with a lady member from liphook who we got paired up with by Richart. The previous year I bought one guest and played with Crow and TomC.

If you had been on the H4H day you would have seen (joke)

Been on other forum days, such as Woburn, Cooden, Royal Cinque Ports, Princes, Sunningdale, New Zealand, Turnberry and bought a guest each time apart from RCP and on each occasion played with people from the forum. Organised a trip to Woburn. Played with a few people from the forum on opens or guest days. Therefore again not quite correct in what you are saying.

Sorry if you or others feel that is perhaps treading on peoples toes and will bear it in mind in the future. To be a forum person, people now need to take part in the forum, turn up to days and come on their own, ha ha.

Like I said, I wasn't having a dig and you don't have to explain your actions to me. Unfortunately I wasn't able to come along to H4H last year due to lack of holidays but I was able to support the day by raising close on £1000 through other means in the background

 

[Capella]

Ours are mixed but ladies don’t want to play.
If we start looking for reasons then we will have a Sexist row on our hands.
We need the ladies on here to try and enlighten us.
Maybe they go to golf to get away from their men ,I know lots who go to get away from women.

That might be part of it. When I travel to the UK, I generally notice that it is more common for married couples to spend their spare time apart from each other and to pursue different hobbies or for example go out for drinks etc. with seperate groups of friends. In Germany, it seems more common to spend free time together as a couple (even after many years of marriage). I totally understand that a purely female group (or for the men a completely male one) might be preferred by some. Certain jokes and topics are more easily shared with members of your own sex and humiliation and failure (always a common occurence during a golf round) might sting a bit less. I don't think there is anything wrong with having certain times/comps in a golf club reserved for just men or just women playing, as long as it is an equal share and everyone still gets a chance to play on weekends and there are enough opportunites for mixed play as well.

As for the reluctance of women to play in comps which used to be (and probably still feel) very male dominated ... it just takes guts to do that. Imagine yourself walking into an (apart from yourself) all female yoga or ballet class for the first time. All those women know each other, have probably more skill and experience at yoga/ballet than yourself, giggle with each other and exchange knowing looks as you enter ... that's what a woman feels like entering her first mixed comp. It puts a lot of extra stress on her and golf and stress normally don't go very well together. Add the usual first tee nerves to that and the first drive is very likely to go anywhere but onto the fairway. And even if it does not happen like that ... the thought that it probably would happen like that is what is keeping women from entering mixed comps.

 

[duncan mackie]

But as the OP said not disrupt other members by block booking so he can’t play that is wrong.

And here is the modern, evolved rather than traditional, problem.

It's not always 'wrong' for their to be a block booking at a time someone wishes to use the course - at an extreme if 200 members wish to enter the one drawn competition held annually on a day and date that a couple of new members wish to play a social round, is it wrong? From there it all becomes a matter of balance which either committees for members clubs, or management for propriatory businesses, have to manage.


In my experience the former have historically been slow to change based on a simple numbers games (the membership joined for what was already in place because that's what they wanted) whilst the other side generally try to please everyone all the time and end with a more fragmented approach that ends up needing micro management to keep anyone happy!

 

[clubchamp98]

That might be part of it. When I travel to the UK, I generally notice that it is more common for married couples to spend their spare time apart from each other and to pursue different hobbies or for example go out for drinks etc. with seperate groups of friends. In Germany, it seems more common to spend free time together as a couple (even after many years of marriage). I totally understand that a purely female group (or for the men a completely male one) might be preferred by some. Certain jokes and topics are more easily shared with members of your own sex and humiliation and failure (always a common occurence during a golf round) might sting a bit less. I don't think there is anything wrong with having certain times/comps in a golf club reserved for just men or just women playing, as long as it is an equal share and everyone still gets a chance to play on weekends and there are enough opportunites for mixed play as well.

As for the reluctance of women to play in comps which used to be (and probably still feel) very male dominated ... it just takes guts to do that. Imagine yourself walking into an (apart from yourself) all female yoga or ballet cl
ass for the first time. All those women know each other, have probably more skill and experience at yoga/ballet than yourself, giggle with each other and exchange knowing looks as you enter ... that's what a woman feels like entering her first mixed comp. It puts a lot of extra stress on her and golf and stress normally don't go very well together. Add the usual first tee nerves to that and the first drive is very likely to go anywhere but onto the fairway. And even if it does not happen like that ... the thought that it probably would happen like that is what is keeping women from entering mixed comps.

Yes I agree with all you say ,but dosnt there come a time when you have to face that pressure.
By choosing not to play they are missing out imo.
But that’s their choice.

I know for a fact 90% of our ladies didn’t want equality as they don’t play competitive golf.
But the 10% got their way

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Appreciate it’ll need to go through committee, that’s what I meant by ‘club’ (poor wording on my part)

Just my own ignorance of your structure but I’m guessing then that there’s a mens committee, a ladies committee but also I suppose a club committee (that sits above both in terms of hierarchy) And it would need to be the club ‘top their’ committee that would ideally roll out such a change (if the membership are happy) and if thats the case its tough to understand how the ladies can push back and what justification they make

If it’s an initiative from the mens committee only (even if supported by the top committee) then while desirable & hoped for it to be reciprocated by the ladies committee it obviously can’t be stated as a requirement or can even be expected for the ladies to follow suit

We have a Club Committee who looked after the club , including all the main club comps.

We have a Ladies Committee who looked after the Ladies Comps only

Senior Committee who look after the Senior Comps

And a Junior Committee who look after junior comps

Any Comp changes will only be actioned by the relevant committee

So the changes were done by the main club committee on the main club comps - it’s now in the Ladies court for them to make the changes to be inline with the main club comps

 

[clubchamp98]

And here is the modern, evolved rather than traditional, problem.

It's not always 'wrong' for their to be a block booking at a time someone wishes to use the course - at an extreme if 200 members wish to enter the one drawn competition held annually on a day and date that a couple of new members wish to play a social round, is it wrong? From there it all becomes a matter of balance which either committees for members clubs, or management for propriatory businesses, have to manage.


In my experience the former have historically been slow to change based on a simple numbers games (the membership joined for what was already in place because that's what they wanted) whilst the other side generally try to please everyone all the time and end with a more fragmented approach that ends up needing micro management to keep anyone happy!

My point was blocked booking for 6 hours but only using a fraction of them thus preventing him from playing.

 

[Capella]

Yes I agree with all you say ,but dosnt there come a time when you have to face that pressure.
By choosing not to play they are missing out imo.

Some see golf as a competitive sport and embrace the pressure that brings. They will probably overcome fears like that quickly and show up for every comp available (like myself, for example). Others (like for example my mom) see golf more as a way to relax and socialize. They don't feel like they have something to gain from putting themselves under pressure that way. That is one of the cool things about golf: that it is suitable for so many different people for completely different reasons. And a golf club should try to accomodate as many different types of players as possible.

 

[clubchamp98]

Some see golf as a competitive sport and embrace the pressure that brings. They will probably overcome fears like that quickly and show up for every comp available (like myself, for example). Others (like for example my mom) see golf more as a way to relax and socialize. They don't feel like they have something to gain from putting themselves under pressure that way. That is one of the cool things about golf: that it is suitable for so many different people for completely different reasons. And a golf club should try to accomodate as many different types of players as possible.

Yes agree again.
They pay their money and choose what suits them.

 

[Slab]

We have a Club Committee who looked after the club , including all the main club comps.

We have a Ladies Committee who looked after the Ladies Comps only

Senior Committee who look after the Senior Comps

And a Junior Committee who look after junior comps

Any Comp changes will only be actioned by the relevant committee

So the changes were done by the main club committee on the main club comps - it’s now in the Ladies court for them to make the changes to be inline with the main club comps

I can see now how that might be problematic when a club want to change direction for comps but can be thwarted by what has essentially become a sub-committee (as the seniors/ladies comp committees would have become after the mens comps became inclusive)

 

[jim8flog]

THE senoirs sections that I have been in have been a club within a club. You pay a yearly subscription to the seniors for prizes, cups, engravings etc so if others were playing without contributing it wouldn’t be fair on the others.

One of the things at ours is that all male members over the age of 54 are automatically classed as seniors and free to enter any event listed as a senior event. We only have one restriction and that is our Seniors Championship, to enter that a player must have played in 3 ordinary seniors comps in the year before the Championship.