Segregation in Golf Clubs

[jim8flog]

Can we not play at the same time but be in different comps? For example, I could be in a 3 ball with a senior, a lady and myself, all playing in our own comps but going around in the same 3. At the moment the ladies block their time slot, the seniors block theirs out and the men block their's on one day, although not for others.

There are times in the week where the course is closed to 2 of the three sections. Why?

With the exceptions of the Seniors Comps, ladies comps where I play the ladies and mens comps are run side by side juniors of either sex play in the appropriate comp.

Much like a lot of clubs the Ladies want to have their own comp on ladies day and the seniors on every other Monday.

I agree with the view that if seniors comps were open to younger ages it would distort the result.

It very noticeable that the CSS for 'all men' comps is generally 2-3 shots lower the Seniors in similar conditions.

 

[clubchamp98]

Our ladies have a comp on Tuesday morning for 2 hours.
Juniors usually play comps Sunday morning but not many of them.
All others are mixed but very few if any ladies play.
Booking 6 hours tee is wrong if you only use part of it for the comp.
As has been said it’s the ladies who don’t want to mix on the course. As most of them are lovely company

 

[IanM]

The Club Captain is a woman this year... the second one we've had in the last 5 years.....a good Capt she is too!

The Ladies Section still have a separate "Lady Captain" this year and went loopy when the question was asked if that was necessary.... so this year we have two Capts, both Ladies

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You say you only have 4 senior comps(over 70s) and then go on to say seniors scoring is more regular or worse. 4 comps is not much of a sample to conclude that.

Over 70’s ? Seniors are mainly over 50 or 55 or 60 - that’s the standard across clubs and counties from what I have seen - I could also use the fact that seniors don’t win are main weekend comps - all won by under 55’s - so guess who would win the “senior comps” if they entered as well

Ones I have seen are not like that. For instance at one club I belong to, last year senior club champ(handicap) was net 63, last comps are net 70, 69, stableford 40 and 44. Great scores from seniors, who must be rapidly improving.

Why is the 30 year old golfer, rapidly improving(?!) and the guy whos 55 who has just retired, playing loads more golf who drops his handicap by 5 in a year, not a rapidly improving golfer? The handicap system is what it is and equal for all ages...

If the Handicap system is equal why do most clubs have divisions ?

I am not saying don't let seniors or anyone play, just if a comp(whether during the week or weekend) is held then the comp should be open to all.

Think will have to agree to disagree, as this agreement can go on for ages, so I wish you well.

Because throughout the sport there are various age level comps - Junior , main and senior - that’s the sport at all levels and it works.

Agreed.

I would add that if you stop competitions being 'women, mens or seniors' and allow comps to be optional rather than compulsory at set times, then you automatically stop the issue of tee times not be available to all members.

What LT is different though and many clubs do have different comps but people playing together - that’s a world of difference to what you are suggesting.

And since when did comps become compulsory? Surely everything is optional - you either enter it or not. Unless you want a tee time but not play in the Comp ? People playing social play in comps - seen it happen and seen the mess it creates when people are just messing about whilst others want to take it seriously

I have to say that what you are looking for is a very small minority in regards age comps and comps - clubs are unable to satisfy everyone , they will aim to please the majority as best as possible.

 

[Wolf]

You got to have age group competitions as well - do you think the Senior Tour and Main Tour should combine ?

Should they get rid of all those county colt competitions and lump them in with the main guys ?

You got to allow them to develop as golfers at a young age in their own surroundings as they gain maturity both on and off the course and allow them to be competitive within their own age range

And it’s the same with Senior Comps - allow them the freedom to be able to compete within their own age comps where they are still competitive as well

It’s not “segregation” for the sake of it - every single sport in the world has Junior and Senior Comps and they work. That is included at County then National level

We have 4 senior comps a year including their senior championships.

Putting everyone all ages in together won’t improve the sport - it will prob have the opposite affect

This does not happen often but for once I'm in complete agreement with LP.

You still need comps for these groups to compete against their own age ranges.


I remember as a junior we had our own comps but once we got to single figures we could then enter men's competition as well regardless of our ages. This was actually a really good way to develop as it meant we got used to competing against similar age people without the added pressure of playing with the adults and once we achieved a decent level we were ready to compete then and take the next steps. If as a 13year old I was thrown into to men's comps straight away it would have put me off as I'd have felt pressured, but a year later off single figures I was ready for it as I was used to competing and understood the game better.

 

[trevor]

THE senoirs sections that I have been in have been a club within a club. You pay a yearly subscription to the seniors for prizes, cups, engravings etc so if others were playing without contributing it wouldn’t be fair on the others.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

As to why? Tradition. The same reasons why dress codes exist etc. They will all disappear over time and clubs will be more relaxed and inclusive, as they are at hotel courses, proprietary clubs etc already.

Blimey! I hope not. Take away the dress code completely and it will be gross.
I'm all for egalitarian, but Ye Gods, there has to be a limit. I once was a member of a small club which didn't enforce any dress code, and one day I saw someone on the third green playing in wellies.!!
Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It is an interesting one but the different sections seem entrenched and unwilling to mix. I have to agree with most posters in that in my experience the ones least willing to mix are the ladies section. They do like to protect their own kingdom. At my club they are treated equally and can have no complaints.

I do get annoyed that on a Bank Holiday Monday I can not go out on a Monday morning because it is closed for the Seniors Comp, that is not right.

Ideally, I would have no separations, all members can go out at any time. People can be in different comps but in the same group, no reason why not.

As to why? Tradition. The same reasons why dress codes exist etc. They will all disappear over time and clubs will be more relaxed and inclusive, as they are at hotel courses, proprietary clubs etc already.

I hope clubs don’t become like hotel courses because owners then chase the money of green fees and the needs of the members are secondary - that’s the best thing about being at a members course - the members are the ones that run the club , they are the ones that provide the greatest income to the club and they are the priority in the club. Many members clubs are still “inclusive” but members are the priority and rightly so - they are the ones that keep the place going. Dress codes are already relaxing in most clubs - jeans in clubhouses etc , trainers , changing shoes in car parks etc but most club will still maintain standards as with most sports.

 

[fundy]

THE senoirs sections that I have been in have been a club within a club. You pay a yearly subscription to the seniors for prizes, cups, engravings etc so if others were playing without contributing it wouldn’t be fair on the others.

This was one of the biggest problems I had at my previous club. The seniors, a club within the club to some degree, basically had the tee up until 11am or beyond every monday wednesday and friday, most tuesdays the ladies had the tee which basically left me with thursday if I wanted to play a midweek morning.

Add in the club then brought in a BRS system from 11am and then sold off 11am until 1pm most days (to greenfees if not booked by members) then as a male under the age of 55 it was almost impossible to play in the morning mid week, and if you teed it up before about 3pm you were in for a 5 hour round - hardly 7 day membership and when you worked a lot at weekends as I did it started to become unviable

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Our ladies don't want it bar the honours board events which (club championship excepted - and a few select others) are open to all. The thought of one united monthly stableford/medal would send shivers down their spines.

As for midweek and seniors events, the dates are published well in advanced and so if you want to play (and qualify for the seniors) then play if you want. The dates are there for everyone and so I don't see any division

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Why is it still around so much.

Is this a good thing in the age of everyone being seen as equal ?

Why moving forwarding, is their still so much segregation in golf clubs like of Women, Men, Seniors etc. Why shouldn't a person not working during the week be able to midweek senior comp or womens comp or women in mens comps for instance, why are the comps separate at most clubs still.

Seems mad that this is still the case and why does it not change ?

To me one of the great things about golf, is that in it is handicap game and you can play with anyone, different sexes, different ages, disabilities, different abilities and so on.

I can think of loads of reasons why there is segregation. Maybe a 70 year old guy who hits the ball 150 yards doesn't want to play with a 20 something that hits it 300 yards, or vice versa. Maybe the seniors want to play their midweek comps paired up with people they have something in common with and can have a conversation with for 4 hours. Same applies to the ladies. And the juniors.

Anyway, I thought you only played with your wife and son and didn't like playing with strangers so I find this thread a bit unusual for you?

 

[Italian outcast]

Why is it still around so much.

Is this a good thing in the age of everyone being seen as equal ?

Why moving forwarding, is their still so much segregation in golf clubs like of Women, Men, Seniors etc. Why shouldn't a person not working during the week be able to midweek senior comp or womens comp or women in mens comps for instance, why are the comps separate at most clubs still.

Seems mad that this is still the case and why does it not change ?

To me one of the great things about golf, is that in it is handicap game and you can play with anyone, different sexes, different ages, disabilities, different abilities and so on.

Nearly all our competitions are open to all (regardless of handicap)
I usually play with a mixture of seniors (not like myself i mean 60 / 70 +) or ladies (and senior ladies) or a junior (i.e., 12 year olds) depending on the draw and my preferred time

Doesn't bother me in the least - Sometimes I can beat the old men

 

[Slab]

I’ll give you the answer that I have witnessed

The Ladies in the club don’t want to mix

We have opened up all our medals and comps to allow Ladies and Juniors etc to be able to play - there is no such thing as a “Men’s Medal or Men’s Stableford “ - but we are not allowed to enter the “Ladies Medal or Stableford” . There is a Captains Day and Presidents Day where it’s open to all the club - men not allowed to enter the Ladies Captains Day. Ladies are welcome to play anytime they want - even if the tee is booked for Comp - free tee slots they can play. Men not allowed to play on the Tuesday when the ladies book out both tees for 6 hours for just 30 people - empty tee slots - men not allowed to enter.

A lot of work is being done to make Ladies more inclusive at weekends , to encourage Ladies that work to play at weekends. As I mentioned to some of the organisers on Twitter - it will backfire and stop soon because the Ladies who play Midweek won’t change. In some ways our ladies are 7 day members and can play every day - men are 6 day and go only play 6 days of the week.

Now there are clubs that will have Men’s sections that don’t want Ladies in their comps and they need to move forward but imo it will all fall flat soon enough.

As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

Just using your post as its the first of a few saying similar, i.e ladies invited but don't want etc

Going back to the OP its the Why that's missing from the replies. Why don't ladies want to take part at certain clubs?

What is it that happens during a mens comp or a womens comp that means when the concept of a mixed field is touted, women don't want to play alongside men or men don't want to play alongside women?

Is it to do with the differing golfing ability, player behaviour, player attitude, integration, a simple misconception or belief or just a poorly thought out invitation strategy or something else entirely?
Could it be something as simple as communication i.e instead of 'opening up the mens comp so ladies can enter' The club really should have started a brand new mixed comp that's 100% inclusive for all, from the start. Rather than inviting a dozen or so women to 'join in' with the game that 120 guys already have going (your club may well have done this all correctly)

Should the mix comp be in addition to the separate comps, is it maybe that men might have to give up the lucrative Saturday AM slot to accommodate a large field mixed comp while women might not have to sacrifice anything


Why at some clubs do they not want to mix?




Edit: its easy to imagine that despite the best efforts of a committee, a portion of the membership can make it clear they don't really want a mixed field
Also its a doddle to invite someone out to dinner/trip etc in such a way as its not actually as appealing as it could be, simply to help illicit a negative response and low and behold the party that did the inviting can then claim the high ground when its not accepted (again, I am not suggested that happened at your club, just throwing it out for discussion)

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Just using your post as its the first of a few saying similar, i.e ladies invited but don't want etc

Going back to the OP its the Why that's missing from the replies. Why don't ladies want to take part at certain clubs?

What is it that happens during a mens comp or a womens comp that means when the concept of a mixed field is touted, women don't want to play alongside men or men don't want to play alongside women?

Is it to do with the differing golfing ability, player behaviour, player attitude, integration, a simple misconception or belief or just a poorly thought out invitation strategy or something else entirely?
Could it be something as simple as communication i.e instead of 'opening up the mens comp so ladies can enter' The club really should have started a brand new mixed comp that's 100% inclusive for all, from the start. Rather than inviting a dozen or so women to 'join in' with the game that 120 guys already have going (your club may well have done this all correctly)

Should the mix comp be in addition to the separate comps, is it maybe that men might have to give up the lucrative Saturday AM slot to accommodate a large field mixed comp while women might not have to sacrifice anything


Why at some clubs do they not want to mix?




Edit: its easy to imagine that despite the best efforts of a committee, a portion of the membership can make it clear they don't really want a mixed field
Also its a doddle to invite someone out to dinner/trip etc in such a way as its not actually as appealing as it could be, simply to help illicit a negative response and low and behold the party that did the inviting can then claim the high ground when its not accepted (again, I am not suggested that happened at your club, just throwing it out for discussion)

In the case of my club, our ladies section is quite insular. They are more than happy to play in mixed comps and mixed matches but have their own defined calendar of events through the year and simply don't have any interest in playing with the men. Some of our board events, usually those over the bank holidays (choose which two days out of the three - four at Easter - you want to play) are one off events but the women will still always go out in their own groups. I think that is the biggest barrier, breaking down these divides but I really don't see a woman enjoying playing with a younger player and vice-versa when there are few common points they can share on the way round and that there is somehow a fear of failure (embarrassment) ingrained into many women member's minds when playing with men. I can't see how that can easily be changed

 

[bobmac]

I don't know why everything these days has to be all inclusive.
If the women don't want to play with the men or the seniors don't want to play with the 'kids', fine, why force them?
You only have to look in the bar and you'll probably see the ladies sitting together, the seniors sitting together and the rest in the middle.
I do however agree that it's wrong to book the tee for hours when only a few will turn up.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just using your post as its the first of a few saying similar, i.e ladies invited but don't want etc

Going back to the OP its the Why that's missing from the replies. Why don't ladies want to take part at certain clubs?

What is it that happens during a mens comp or a womens comp that means when the concept of a mixed field is touted, women don't want to play alongside men or men don't want to play alongside women?

Is it to do with the differing golfing ability, player behaviour, player attitude, integration, a simple misconception or belief or just a poorly thought out invitation strategy or something else entirely?
Could it be something as simple as communication i.e instead of 'opening up the mens comp so ladies can enter' The club really should have started a brand new mixed comp that's 100% inclusive for all, from the start. Rather than inviting a dozen or so women to 'join in' with the game that 120 guys already have going (your club may well have done this all correctly)

Should the mix comp be in addition to the separate comps, is it maybe that men might have to give up the lucrative Saturday AM slot to accommodate a large field mixed comp while women might not have to sacrifice anything


Why at some clubs do they not want to mix?




Edit: its easy to imagine that despite the best efforts of a committee, a portion of the membership can make it clear they don't really want a mixed field
Also its a doddle to invite someone out to dinner/trip etc in such a way as its not actually as appealing as it could be, simply to help illicit a negative response and low and behold the party that did the inviting can then claim the high ground when its not accepted (again, I am not suggested that happened at your club, just throwing it out for discussion)

Umm I think you have got the wrong end of my post

“Ladies Invited but don’t etc etc “

It’s not about Comps being opened up at weekends and Ladies not playing - they are playing , we have a good number of ladies who play in the competitions at weekends and mix ,we have ladies who have roll ups at weekends etc - it’s only two comps the Ladies can’t play - Club Championships and a Foursomes

It’s the Midweek Ladies Comps that refuse to change to allow all to play , it’s the ladies that have 6 hours of tee booked for 30 people max and refuse to let anyone play in an empty tee slot - it’s not about “ the invite to Men’s comps etc etc . It’s about Ladies who refuse to change their “Ladies Day” to become more inclusive

 

[Slab]

Umm I think you have got the wrong end of my post

“Ladies Invited but don’t etc etc “

It’s not about Comps being opened up at weekends and Ladies not playing - they are playing , we have a good number of ladies who play in the competitions at weekends and mix ,we have ladies who have roll ups at weekends etc - it’s only two comps the Ladies can’t play - Club Championships and a Foursomes

It’s the Midweek Ladies Comps that refuse to change to allow all to play , it’s the ladies that have 6 hours of tee booked for 30 people max and refuse to let anyone play in an empty tee slot - it’s not about “ the invite to Men’s comps etc etc . It’s about Ladies who refuse to change their “Ladies Day” to become more inclusive

Yeah I think you're right, sorry. So its become inclusive at weekends at the club but not yet through the week? I get it now

Although why would it be up to the women to need to let all groups participate in midweek? Did it work that way with weekend comps where men needed to let women/seniors/juniors in?

Didn't the club just decide; this is what we'll do and it applies to all days?
Although I suppose if the mens and wonens clubs are separate entities that share the same course I can see where that might be an issue if one club adopts a change and another doesn't but if its one club it should've been covered in the same change

 

[garyinderry]

Tee should never be block booked if it wont be in use. why not just give priority on the course to those playing whatever comp it is on the day.

Very few of our ladies can break 100 and have little interest in playing in comps with men. they do play mixed events and can play their comp while out with 4 men if they so pleased.

Ladies captains day is next week which there is a separate mens Comp and we are encouraged to play. at my brothers place they don't dare turn up on women's day. Haha

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I can think of loads of reasons why there is segregation. Maybe a 70 year old guy who hits the ball 150 yards doesn't want to play with a 20 something that hits it 300 yards, or vice versa. Maybe the seniors want to play their midweek comps paired up with people they have something in common with and can have a conversation with for 4 hours. Same applies to the ladies. And the juniors.

Anyway, I thought you only played with your wife and son and didn't like playing with strangers so I find this thread a bit unusual for you?

Sorry I wasn't suggesting that you are forced to play with people you don't wish to, what I am questioning is why is there a requirement for a ladies section, senior section etc and they hold their separate comps. To me comps/tee times should be all inclusive as each member has paid a full membership and should be able to enter 'most' comps on whatever day they are held and be allowed to play on that day.

I am not a fan of drawn comps, so certainly not into forcing anyone or as you say the 70 years old to play with the 20 year old. Play in your own groups if you wish to. Just that the comp or tee should be available for all to play in.

I still don't see what the reasons for all the separate groups/segregation that exists in most clubs, just why have it, other than for historical reasons ?

Hopefully that's clearer.

In respect of the second comment, will take it at face value rather than a dig at me, written word can read harsh at times. And to answer the question, you are not quite correct, I play with plenty of different people, so as an example between the 3/5 to the 7/6, I would have played with 13 people who are not my wife or son.

 

[duncan mackie]

Firstly I do not see this as a tradition thing at all. I believe it's the opposite - it is what has evolved to meet people's wants.

Once upon a time clubs ran 2 competitions - the Spring meeting and the Autumn meeting. These being when the majority of the membership were at the club's.
Roll forwards a few years and you have a plethora of events in the calendar of most clubs. Typically, but not limited to, monthly medals & club championships first, then the rest of the calendar simply gets filled as and when enough people decide they wish to organise and compete in another event. These latter events normally starting out in diary space that has no existing demand.
Whether they be by a group for that group, or by a group for a wider group, or even other group, doesn't matter in this context. This generally covers age related 'segregation'. As an example we added another 12 events to the diary this year based purely on demand. It's the same people playing at the same time but in Q comp format with a 2hr tee booking, always oversubscribed so far, and carefully positioned so that it's played on 4 days of the week x 3 through the year to minimise the Fundy issue, and it's variants. That it's a senior event isn't anything to do with segregation, it's purely demand led.

The evolution of gender based golf has followed a more complex route and, as has been illustrated many times in high profile situations, cannot be appropriately resolved by the application of a simple equality sticker when it comes to playing rights.