Segregation in Golf Clubs

[Deleted member 21258]

Why is it still around so much.

Is this a good thing in the age of everyone being seen as equal ?

Why moving forwarding, is their still so much segregation in golf clubs like of Women, Men, Seniors etc. Why shouldn't a person not working during the week be able to midweek senior comp or womens comp or women in mens comps for instance, why are the comps separate at most clubs still.

Seems mad that this is still the case and why does it not change ?

To me one of the great things about golf, is that in it is handicap game and you can play with anyone, different sexes, different ages, disabilities, different abilities and so on.

 

[r0wly86]

My current club, other than individual club championships are all mixed. And it all works very well, does make me wonder why other clubs don't do it.

But what I have gleaned from other clubs that have tried to do that is that it is the women who are generally reluctant as they don't want to play with the men

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I’ll give you the answer that I have witnessed

The Ladies in the club don’t want to mix

We have opened up all our medals and comps to allow Ladies and Juniors etc to be able to play - there is no such thing as a “Men’s Medal or Men’s Stableford “ - but we are not allowed to enter the “Ladies Medal or Stableford” . There is a Captains Day and Presidents Day where it’s open to all the club - men not allowed to enter the Ladies Captains Day. Ladies are welcome to play anytime they want - even if the tee is booked for Comp - free tee slots they can play. Men not allowed to play on the Tuesday when the ladies book out both tees for 6 hours for just 30 people - empty tee slots - men not allowed to enter.

A lot of work is being done to make Ladies more inclusive at weekends , to encourage Ladies that work to play at weekends. As I mentioned to some of the organisers on Twitter - it will backfire and stop soon because the Ladies who play Midweek won’t change. In some ways our ladies are 7 day members and can play every day - men are 6 day and go only play 6 days of the week.

Now there are clubs that will have Men’s sections that don’t want Ladies in their comps and they need to move forward but imo it will all fall flat soon enough.

As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

 

[r0wly86]

I’ll give you the answer that I have witnessed

The Ladies in the club don’t want to mix

We have opened up all our medals and comps to allow Ladies and Juniors etc to be able to play - there is no such thing as a “Men’s Medal or Men’s Stableford “ - but we are not allowed to enter the “Ladies Medal or Stableford” . There is a Captains Day and Presidents Day where it’s open to all the club - men not allowed to enter the Ladies Captains Day. Ladies are welcome to play anytime they want - even if the tee is booked for Comp - free tee slots they can play. Men not allowed to play on the Tuesday when the ladies book out both tees for 6 hours for just 30 people - empty tee slots - men not allowed to enter.

A lot of work is being done to make Ladies more inclusive at weekends , to encourage Ladies that work to play at weekends. As I mentioned to some of the organisers on Twitter - it will backfire and stop soon because the Ladies who play Midweek won’t change. In some ways our ladies are 7 day members and can play every day - men are 6 day and go only play 6 days of the week.

Now there are clubs that will have Men’s sections that don’t want Ladies in their comps and they need to move forward but imo it will all fall flat soon enough.

As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

That's a shame the ladies at my club love playing comps as a whole club

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Our Ladies have asked to remain separate, they want their own Comps and are happy not to mix, my Juniors prefer mixed comps, so hopefully over time attitudes will change.

 

[patricks148]

I’ll give you the answer that I have witnessed

The Ladies in the club don’t want to mix

We have opened up all our medals and comps to allow Ladies and Juniors etc to be able to play - there is no such thing as a “Men’s Medal or Men’s Stableford “ - but we are not allowed to enter the “Ladies Medal or Stableford” . There is a Captains Day and Presidents Day where it’s open to all the club - men not allowed to enter the Ladies Captains Day. Ladies are welcome to play anytime they want - even if the tee is booked for Comp - free tee slots they can play. Men not allowed to play on the Tuesday when the ladies book out both tees for 6 hours for just 30 people - empty tee slots - men not allowed to enter.

A lot of work is being done to make Ladies more inclusive at weekends , to encourage Ladies that work to play at weekends. As I mentioned to some of the organisers on Twitter - it will backfire and stop soon because the Ladies who play Midweek won’t change. In some ways our ladies are 7 day members and can play every day - men are 6 day and go only play 6 days of the week.

Now there are clubs that will have Men’s sections that don’t want Ladies in their comps and they need to move forward but imo it will all fall flat soon enough.

As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

our ladies are the same, in fact its all one way with them.

They can play any day no restrictions and the ladies can play in the mens Pullar medals and go in the roll up times, something men cannot do in the ladies comps. Ladies also have 3 Sat comps (Opens) where all the times are blocked for the whole day which is not the case with the one mens open, which has afternoon slots made available to anyone.

Ladies also have almost 3 hours blocked on a tues and thurs (in 2 slots both days) where they are lucky if they use half the times and want an extra half hour buffer after there times so mens groups are not straight behind.

They also wanted to be included in all the mens club matches, but the ladies would still have there own without the favour being returned to the men, which is a real shame as they have twice as many and are at some super courses all over the UK they play at.

everyone is equal at my club, but as George Orwell would say "but some are more equal than others"

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It is an interesting one but the different sections seem entrenched and unwilling to mix. I have to agree with most posters in that in my experience the ones least willing to mix are the ladies section. They do like to protect their own kingdom. At my club they are treated equally and can have no complaints.

I do get annoyed that on a Bank Holiday Monday I can not go out on a Monday morning because it is closed for the Seniors Comp, that is not right.

Ideally, I would have no separations, all members can go out at any time. People can be in different comps but in the same group, no reason why not.

As to why? Tradition. The same reasons why dress codes exist etc. They will all disappear over time and clubs will be more relaxed and inclusive, as they are at hotel courses, proprietary clubs etc already.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

snip
As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

Why do you say that, why should a comp be based on age ? Seems such a strange one to me (can see reasons for varying playing tees but not terms of a general comp purely on age)

Most comps for seniors are in the week, why shouldn't a 30 year old that works weekends play in the 'midweek seniors comp'. Seems segregation for the sake of it and because it always has been, when both are full members.

I struggle to see why they 'are needed'

 

[need_my_wedge]

I’ll give you the answer that I have witnessed

The Ladies in the club don’t want to mix

We have opened up all our medals and comps to allow Ladies and Juniors etc to be able to play - there is no such thing as a “Men’s Medal or Men’s Stableford “ - but we are not allowed to enter the “Ladies Medal or Stableford” . There is a Captains Day and Presidents Day where it’s open to all the club - men not allowed to enter the Ladies Captains Day. Ladies are welcome to play anytime they want - even if the tee is booked for Comp - free tee slots they can play. Men not allowed to play on the Tuesday when the ladies book out both tees for 6 hours for just 30 people - empty tee slots - men not allowed to enter.

A lot of work is being done to make Ladies more inclusive at weekends , to encourage Ladies that work to play at weekends. As I mentioned to some of the organisers on Twitter - it will backfire and stop soon because the Ladies who play Midweek won’t change. In some ways our ladies are 7 day members and can play every day - men are 6 day and go only play 6 days of the week.

Now there are clubs that will have Men’s sections that don’t want Ladies in their comps and they need to move forward but imo it will all fall flat soon enough.

As for “senior and Junior “ comps - nothing wrong with them at all - they work very well and are needed

Playing at the same club as Phil, I know this is a bone of contention for many. In order to block out the diary, the ladies effectively book a competition every tuesday from 08:30 - 14:30, during which time the men are not allowed to play on the course. The ladies are included and able to play in all other "mens" competitions, and a few do. It seems unfair that we men are pretty much excluded for most of Tuesday despite paying for the privilege to be a 7 day member.

 

[Capella]

In most German golfclubs, there is one men's day (usually Wednesday) and one ladies' day (usually Thursday). Pretty much all other club comps are mixed with the women playing off the reds and the men playing of the yellow tees. Netto prizes are usually mixed (the rating should even out any differences there), gross prizes are often separate for men and women because of the different tee boxes. So are special prizes like longest drive or nearest to the pin, usually. Comps are usually drawn (or rather put together by the comittee, not completely randomly, so that certain wishes can be taken into consideration ... for example, couples are usually not put together in the same group ... not sure if that is to avoid cheating or fighting ... but the comittee will try to put them in adjacent groups to avoid waiting times for them if they share a car), so mixed three- or fourballs are quite common.

Official league comps are a different story, the league system is completely segregated.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why do you say that, why should a comp be based on age ? Seems such a strange one to me (can see reasons for varying playing tees but not terms of a general comp purely on age)

Most comps for seniors are in the week, why shouldn't a 30 year old that works weekends play in the 'midweek seniors comp'. Seems segregation for the sake of it and because it always has been, when both are full members.

I struggle to see why they 'are needed'

You got to have age group competitions as well - do you think the Senior Tour and Main Tour should combine ?

Should they get rid of all those county colt competitions and lump them in with the main guys ?

You got to allow them to develop as golfers at a young age in their own surroundings as they gain maturity both on and off the course and allow them to be competitive within their own age range

And it’s the same with Senior Comps - allow them the freedom to be able to compete within their own age comps where they are still competitive as well

It’s not “segregation” for the sake of it - every single sport in the world has Junior and Senior Comps and they work. That is included at County then National level

We have 4 senior comps a year including their senior championships.

Putting everyone all ages in together won’t improve the sport - it will prob have the opposite affect

 

[nickjdavis]

We seem to have two different groups of Ladies.

1) The midweek ladies who pretty much keep themselves to themselves and play their own Ladies dedicated comps on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
2) The weekend ladies who pretty much are all married to 7 day members. These ladies play alongside the men in weekend comps which, with just one or two exception's are open to both men and ladies.

There is a small (pretty much count them on the fingers of one hand) group of ladies who fall into both groups.

Our male seniors also have their own allocated slots on Tuesdays and Thursdays for their own comps, many of which are played off the yellow tees rather than the white.....those of them who are 7 days members (many are 5 day members) are welcome (and indeed several do) to play in the club comps held at the weekend.

There is no segregation whatsoever save for that which individual members impose upon themselves.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

You got to have age group competitions as well - do you think the Senior Tour and Main Tour should combine ?

Should they get rid of all those county colt competitions and lump them in with the main guys ?

You got to allow them to develop as golfers at a young age in their own surroundings as they gain maturity both on and off the course and allow them to be competitive within their own age range

And it’s the same with Senior Comps - allow them the freedom to be able to compete within their own age comps where they are still competitive as well

It’s not “segregation” for the sake of it - every single sport in the world has Junior and Senior Comps and they work. That is included at County then National level

We have 4 senior comps a year including their senior championships.

Putting everyone all ages in together won’t improve the sport - it will prob have the opposite affect

Sorry we are not talking about top level professional events here, that is why the tours are split. Your examples are not relevant We are talking about handicap golfers in the main.

I did not refer to juniors in my post, as there are genuine safeguarding issues and amount paying for membership that I did not wish this thread to be about, so I did leave them out as they are not really fully equal paying members tbh(don't really want to get into that section)

Therefore coming back to the senior section you said that is needed, we are handicap golfers, so why should a senior handicap comp needed ?(off whatever tees that is pick for that comp, short ones if necessary)?

Why is the senior section needed, you haven't really given an example of why it is NEEDED, rather than an all inclusive group/comp ?

Why do seniors need comps to be only their old age group? They can still play in their own groups(old, young, different handicaps, different sex etc), but why do we need a comp purely for seniors, a slight but important difference

And why should the 30 year old not be allowed to play in the midweek comp that happens to be called 'seniors'.

Plain weird to say 'putting the ages together wont improve the sport and will prob have the opposite affect', we are taking about equal access and compulsorily segregation, sounds like you are part of the problem and can not see what you are saying is the current system at most clubs ?Confused

 

[duncan mackie]

Why do you say that, why should a comp be based on age ? Seems such a strange one to me (can see reasons for varying playing tees but not terms of a general comp purely on age)

Most comps for seniors are in the week, why shouldn't a 30 year old that works weekends play in the 'midweek seniors comp'. Seems segregation for the sake of it and because it always has been, when both are full members.

I struggle to see why they 'are needed'

They aren't needed, they are wanted.

There is a whole structure around competitive senior golf at all levels that is simply reflected at club levels.

If it wasn't there there would be a lot less senior golfers playing - which would have a significant impact on club and course financials!

We don't have a junior section as we don't have any juniors - they can compete as people once they have a CONGU handicap (and it's been that way for many years now).

All comps are run in parallel with the Ladies section ie everyone signs into the same start sheet. Only 1 comp is played as a mixed comp though - for reasons already posted more than once.

There isn't segregation in the senior ranks either - well over 50% of all club teams are seniors, most 7 day seniors play every weekend comp and most 5 day seniors play midweek men's comps. However, there are additional comps run by the senior section about every 2/3 weeks, on different weekdays that are for golfers over 55; they are already oversubscribed and increasing the field size isn't an option from a management perspective.

 

[BrianM]

It would be a good move if more clubs did mixed comps in my opinion, I struggle to play competitions due to working away half the year and a young family, if I could play with seniors or ladies it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest, but it would be easier for me to play on Tuesday and Wednesdays when there competitions are on.
Not sure if they would be too happy though.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sorry we are not talking about top level professional events here, that is why the tours are split. Your examples are not relevant We are talking about handicap golfers in the main.

I did not refer to juniors in my post, as there are genuine safeguarding issues and amount paying for membership that I did not wish this thread to be about, so I did leave them out as they are not really fully equal paying members tbh(don't really want to get into that section)

Therefore coming back to the senior section you said that is needed, we are handicap golfers, so why should a senior handicap comp needed ?(off whatever tees that is pick for that comp, short ones if necessary)?

Why is the senior section needed, you haven't really given an example of why it is NEEDED, rather than an all inclusive group/comp ?

Why do seniors need comps to be only their old age group? They can still play in their own groups(old, young, different handicaps, different sex etc), but why do we need a comp purely for seniors, a slight but important difference

And why should the 30 year old not be allowed to play in the midweek comp that happens to be called 'seniors'.

Plain weird to say 'putting the ages together wont improve the sport and will prob have the opposite affect', we are taking about equal access and compulsorily segregation, sounds like you are part of the problem and can not see what you are saying is the current system at most clubs ?Confused

Every sport has age related competitions- even with Handicaps

Even within Handicaps there are seperate divisions - mid , high , etc - why is that when we all have a “handicap”

A lot of “seniors” don’t play at weekends - so they have their comps during a week , they are also at times a good deal slower , and even with Handicaps they play within their own age range

Take Senior Club Championships - do you think that should be open to everyone ?

In most clubs the main club comps out number the senior ones - we have 4 senior i think it is - but over 70 main club

What about club matches - we have senior team

The whole sport has a Senior Structure from club all the way through to international- it’s what clubs and the sport want , it allows a lot of seniors to still be competitive at all levels.

You allow the 30 year old to enter the Senior club and he cleans up because he is a new improving golfer where the majority of seniors go the other way - how do you think that would work out ? Handicaps don’t always produce a full level playing field

If I look at the Senior scores at my club and compare to the other comps - the main comps have a lot lower scores because there are plenty of players who are constantly improving as golfers - seniors

As for the “im part of the problem” - what problem is that ? Is there a problem or is it just something you don’t like

As for Juniors - it’s the same but the other end of the spectrum

Golf is great that Handicaps do help a level playing field to some extent but it’s far from perfect and it doesn’t mean we should all just play in one competition.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Can we not play at the same time but be in different comps? For example, I could be in a 3 ball with a senior, a lady and myself, all playing in our own comps but going around in the same 3. At the moment the ladies block their time slot, the seniors block theirs out and the men block their's on one day, although not for others.

There are times in the week where the course is closed to 2 of the three sections. Why?

 

[duncan mackie]

Can we not play at the same time but be in different comps? For example, I could be in a 3 ball with a senior, a lady and myself, all playing in our own comps but going around in the same 3. At the moment the ladies block their time slot, the seniors block theirs out and the men block their's on one day, although not for others.

There are times in the week where the course is closed to 2 of the three sections. Why?

No idea why - we are the complete opposite and you will definitely get such games in both weekend and midweek competitions.
You will also have small midweek comps organised by the Ladies and seniors which are effectively Q swindles!

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Every sport has age related competitions- even with Handicaps

Even within Handicaps there are seperate divisions - mid , high , etc - why is that when we all have a “handicap”

A lot of “seniors” don’t play at weekends - so they have their comps during a week , they are also at times a good deal slower , and even with Handicaps they play within their own age range

Take Senior Club Championships - do you think that should be open to everyone ?

In most clubs the main club comps out number the senior ones - we have 4 senior i think it is - but over 70 main club

What about club matches - we have senior team

The whole sport has a Senior Structure from club all the way through to international- it’s what clubs and the sport want , it allows a lot of seniors to still be competitive at all levels.

You allow the 30 year old to enter the Senior club and he cleans up because he is a new improving golfer where the majority of seniors go the other way - how do you think that would work out ? Handicaps don’t always produce a full level playing field

If I look at the Senior scores at my club and compare to the other comps - the main comps have a lot lower scores because there are plenty of players who are constantly improving as golfers - seniors

As for the “im part of the problem” - what problem is that ? Is there a problem or is it just something you don’t like

As for Juniors - it’s the same but the other end of the spectrum

Golf is great that Handicaps do help a level playing field to some extent but it’s far from perfect and it doesn’t mean we should all just play in one competition.

You say you only have 4 senior comps(over 70s) and then go on to say seniors scoring is more regular or worse. 4 comps is not much of a sample to conclude that.

Ones I have seen are not like that. For instance at one club I belong to, last year senior club champ(handicap) was net 63, last comps are net 70, 69, stableford 40 and 44. Great scores from seniors, who must be rapidly improving.

Why is the 30 year old golfer, rapidly improving(?!) and the guy whos 55 who has just retired, playing loads more golf who drops his handicap by 5 in a year, not a rapidly improving golfer? The handicap system is what it is and equal for all ages...

I am not saying don't let seniors or anyone play, just if a comp(whether during the week or weekend) is held then the comp should be open to all.

Think will have to agree to disagree, as this agreement can go on for ages, so I wish you well.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Can we not play at the same time but be in different comps? For example, I could be in a 3 ball with a senior, a lady and myself, all playing in our own comps but going around in the same 3. At the moment the ladies block their time slot, the seniors block theirs out and the men block their's on one day, although not for others.

There are times in the week where the course is closed to 2 of the three sections. Why?

Agreed.

I would add that if you stop competitions being 'women, mens or seniors' and allow comps to be optional rather than compulsory at set times, then you automatically stop the issue of tee times not be available to all members.