Scratch golf is course independent

[D-S]

CH

How on earth could it be CH? Someone with a HI of 0.0 would have a CH at Bethpage Black off the tips (to use an example from this thread) of 6 - so they are not a scratch golfer?

 

[fenwayrich]

Yes, you should report anything like this. The best way is through your own handicap committee, who will pass it on via the county advisor.

If he's not a member at any club, all previous clubs should have resigned him on the system and he should no longer have a handicap. If that club isn't doing this when members leave, they probably just need a reminder.

Straying off the purpose of the thread here (apologies) but I think that this is where theory and practice can become divorced. I have been on my club's handicap committee since WHS was introduced, at which point I removed nearly 400 ex members from the England Golf handicap database (some long departed, either from the club or the mortal coil including one who had 13 CDH numbers!). We are now spot on, as I regularly do a reconciliation. Our County Treasurer receives EG/County subs from the clubs. In the majority of cases, the number they are paying for is significantly less than the number registered on WHS. Requests to clubs to cleanse their database are slowly getting through to the miscreants, perhaps due to the indication by England Golf that in future the affiliation fee will be charged based on the WHS figure rather than the one the club submit.

 

[doublebogey7]

I can see both sides of this and fail to get bothered by either argument.

1) If folk are putting in scores properly, their handicap is what the app says it is.

2) Notwithstanding Slope, CR, PCC, BBC, ITV, RAC etc etc, golfers have been debating the relative difficulties of courses since Old Tom was a nipper.

Are we back to the debate about "is it CH or HI" that determines scratch?

In England & Wales it would currently be both. From April it will most definately be HI.

 

[wjemather]

Nobody* wants to be known as the person that grassed someone up.

*at school or in prison.

In any case, reports can be made anonymously.

 

[TheDiablo]

Lets' put 100 scratch golfers from England on a plane, send them to 'nooo yoik' for 12 months and let them play Bethpage Black from the tips every weekend.

Will they all come back playing off scratch?

If you broke 80 just 20% of the time around Bethpage from the tips you would very likely be scratch

Highlights the gap between a scratch and tour player very well!

 

[Deleted member 1147]

If you broke 80 just 20% of the time around Bethpage from the tips you would very likely be scratch

Highlights the gap between a scratch and tour player very well!

I know several ex-Pros who are + handicappers, but just weren't good enough for the pro ranks (even at the lower levels)

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I reckon that at the lower end of handicaps compared to the old system they are a couple of shots lower under WHS

 

[Voyager EMH]

I know several ex-Pros who are + handicappers, but just weren't good enough for the pro ranks (even at the lower levels)

We have three current pros who have handicaps based at our course. They are +1.5 +1.2 and +1.0
They can play in midland club-pro events from time to time and pick up a few £100s now and again.

Our three lowest amateurs are +1.2 +1.0 and +0.9.

The +1.5 is the oldest of the 6.

 

[Backsticks]

I reckon that at the lower end of handicaps compared to the old system they are a couple of shots lower under WHS

This is correct, and as planned. For two reasons. The removal of the bias in favour of low handicappers, so now lower but in line with higher hcs. The stickiness of UHS, less reflected current form, and so anchored towards the lower end, and/or, facilitated a bit of handicap vanity of scratchmen who werent necessarily anymore.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

We have three current pros who have handicaps based at our course. They are +1.5 +1.2 and +1.0
They can play in midland club-pro events from time to time and pick up a few £100s now and again.

Our three lowest amateurs are +1.2 +1.0 and +0.9.

The +1.5 is the oldest of the 6.

At my place we have a current Pro @ +5.1 & 3 former Pros @ +3.3, +3.1 & +2.5
There are 14 + handicappers in all, Making me, at 2.7 joint 33rd on the handicap list

 

[Deleted member 23270]

This is correct, and as planned. For two reasons. The removal of the bias in favour of low handicappers, so now lower but in line with higher hcs. The stickiness of UHS, less reflected current form, and so anchored towards the lower end, and/or, facilitated a bit of handicap vanity of scratchmen who werent necessarily anymore.

you make it up as you go

 

[rulefan]

Requests to clubs to cleanse their database are slowly getting through to the miscreants, perhaps due to the indication by England Golf that in future the affiliation fee will be charged based on the WHS figure rather than the one the club submit.

That will concentrate a few minds

 

[Banchory Buddha]

This is correct, and as planned. For two reasons. The removal of the bias in favour of low handicappers, so now lower but in line with higher hcs. The stickiness of UHS, less reflected current form, and so anchored towards the lower end, and/or, facilitated a bit of handicap vanity of scratchmen who werent necessarily anymore.

So under WHS most very low players are a couple shots lower than UHS (think we all agree that's happened), yet UHS which produced higher handicaps were facilitating vanity handicaps?

 

[wjemather]

So under WHS most very low players are a couple shots lower than UHS (think we all agree that's happened), yet UHS which produced higher handicaps were facilitating vanity handicaps?

Essentially, yes.
While UHS prevented better players from reaching a handicap that truly reflected their peak ability (fwiw, 0.2 reductions would have done this), it also enabled declining and declined golfers to maintain handicaps far lower than their ability - which might have unfairly been labelled vanity handicaps.

 

[pokerjoke]

If I get to scratch at my club I will count myself as a scratch player purely because overtime I have played well or consistently enough to achieve scratch.

I would suspect if I went to every other course I played I would probably never play to par.
Overtime we learn our course,every nook and cranny ,and we learn to score.

I believe if I then joined or played another course I would learn that course and still be scratch.

I certainly agree that the new system has made it easier,but to say scratch isn’t scratch is to me ridiculous.

 

[WGCRider]

I'm a data guy and this is not something I've thought of before. I'm a member of 2 clubs and both clubs have 2 courses. So I've had a look at what my handicap would be on each course rather than overall and the results are actually quite interesting.

Course	Par	Rating	Slope	Handicap
1	73	71.7	133	6.1
2	72	70.5	133	4.9
3	72	71.2	125	3.5
4	72	69.8	117	3.7

Probably worth adding that only on course 3 do I have 20 qualifying rounds - others are all less.
My actual handicap is 3.4 but this is cause I have counting rounds that aren't from these 4 courses

 

[Backsticks]

So under WHS most very low players are a couple shots lower than UHS (think we all agree that's happened), yet UHS which produced higher handicaps were facilitating vanity handicaps?

Yes, exactly. Due to the stickiness, or, compared to WHS, slower tendency to rise with disimproving scores.

 

[Backsticks]

you make it up as you go

Well, in attempt to help more people understand WHS. Some people really dont understand it at all. Nor UHS in the main, although many had accimulated a 'feel' for that, even if they didnt follow what was behind it, or even had misconceptions about how it worked.

 

[Backache]

I certainly agree that the new system has made it easier,but to say scratch isn’t scratch is to me ridiculous.

I'd say scratch is scratch is a tautology.

That the standard of golf that is required to attain a scratch handicap may vary on different courses is a hypothesis that has as far as I can see been debated and is debateable but is not proven either way.

Stagners data suggests that the standard may well vary.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So loads of amateur scratch players have found a course that suits them and got to scratch by becoming very familiar with that course.
Get a bunch of scratch players together on a particular course and observe that there is variation in how they cope with that course.
What a revelation!