Red Tees for juniors

sawtooth

sawtooth

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On the WHS for our course we have White and Yellow tees for men, Reds for women.

We have some boys that are high handicappers and play off reds. Do I just add the red tees again for the juniors and will course rating, slope rating, par etc just carry across as is?

Or do I need to talk to England Golf?
 
sawtooth said:
On the WHS for our course we have White and Yellow tees for men, Reds for women.

We have some boys that are high handicappers and play off reds. Do I just add the red tees again for the juniors and will course rating, slope rating, par etc just carry across as is?

Or do I need to talk to England Golf?
Click to expand...

I think you and the club need a good look at yourselves and get out of the Victorian era......
 
sawtooth said:
On the WHS for our course we have White and Yellow tees for men, Reds for women.

We have some boys that are high handicappers and play off reds. Do I just add the red tees again for the juniors and will course rating, slope rating, par etc just carry across as is?

Or do I need to talk to England Golf?
Click to expand...

Longer term, seek to have all three courses rated for men and women so that all members have a full and equal choice of tees. For the immediate, understand that courses are rated by gender regardless of age. In handicap terms, there is no such thing as a "junior". Boys and men can only return acceptable scores from your white and yellow tees, not the red. Girls and women can only return acceptable scores from your red tees not the white or yellow.
 
IanM said:
...we've put a set of tees out (colour not relevant :) ) way down the fairway for the nippers to play and enjoy themselves. I doubt if anyone has measured it, written to the R&A for rulings etc... it's about getting kids having fun!
Click to expand...

We've done that too. Because the group lessons for 8-12 year olds didn't happen last summer, they were encouraged to get out on the course and play. It was tremendous seeing them having a blast on the course, not really worrying too much about the number, a scorecard or a handicap index. And I never heard one person complain about being stuck behind them.
 
Traminator said:
When did that change?
Ever since I started playing in the 80s, the younger kids off higher handicaps have always played off the reds because playing off the yellows is plain crazy.

The Golf Access initiative is excellent, many clubs now have tees way up the fairway, making the holes much more sensible distances for the little ones:
Learn to play Golf - Beginner's Golf Programme | UK | Golf Access (golfaccessprogram.com)
Click to expand...

Notice that I said "In handicap terms". That is, if a junior wants to have and maintain a WHS handicap he/she has to play on a course rated for their gender. That's not new.

There are all sorts of juniors. My own club has a 12 year old laddie with a handicap index of 7.8. At same time we have a forward set of green tees for the ones who aren't ready to tackle anything longer. Fun in learning is essential and as you say, setting youngsters impossible tasks is crazy. I remember when I was 12 fancying myself as a goalie. How humiliating that was when we had to play with full size goals unlike today.
 
Does it cost any extra to get tees rated?

If you wanted then to come and rate the tees yellows and whites for women, and the reds for men, would there be a charge?
 
I can't answer for England Golf, but our red and blue courses were rated for men and our yellow and white for women by Scottish Golf to bring us up to a full set. It was a paper exercise using the data already on file and did not need a rating team to do a site visit. I expect rulefan will know the English situation.

By the way, a "full set" includes 9 hole ratings for the front and back nines.
 
Old Skier said:
If a junior has a HC they must have achieved it on a correctly measured course. If they have a correct HC they can play off whatever tees they and other club members are allowed to use.
Click to expand...

yep... hence my use of the word "nippers" above... they progress to the most forward official tees when they are able and get the HC... Mind you, we have some octogenarians who have sneaked a few holes off the "Nipper tees" too....
 
sawtooth said:
Or do I need to talk to England Golf?
Click to expand...
No, you need to speak to your County. They will arrange to rate the red tees for male players. All female players will have handicap scores relating to the current female rating for the red tees.
Depending on the county rating teams' availability, they may not be able to do a full rating but will be able to give you a temporary rating. It may be worth asking them to rate the yellow tees for females whilst they are there (if your ladies are interested).
 
rulefan said:
No, you need to speak to your County. They will arrange to rate the red tees for male players. All female players will have handicap scores relating to the current female rating for the red tees.
Depending on the county rating teams' availability, they may not be able to do a full rating but will be able to give you a temporary rating. It may be worth asking them to rate the yellow tees for females whilst they are there (if your ladies are interested).
Click to expand...

Thanks that’s very helpful rulefan I’ll send an email mail to the BB&O secretary.
 
Traminator said:
When did that change?
Ever since I started playing in the 80s, the younger kids off higher handicaps have always played off the reds because playing off the yellows is plain crazy.
Click to expand...
Tees were rated by gender (Course Rating was then called the SSS). I anticipation of the WHS and recognising the requirements of all players the opportunity was given to all clubs to have their tees rated for one or both genders. And many club have don this.

However, for non handicap purposes it has always been permitted and recognised that juniors should play from shorted tees more suitable to their physical capabilities. Which is why many clubs are introducing shorter green tees.
 
Traminator said:
But boy juniors under 14 and with high handicaps have been playing exclusively off red tees since forever, going back 40 years when I was a kid.
They've been getting their handicaps like this.
I'm just surprised to hear it can't be done when it has been since the days of black and white... ?
Click to expand...
I am surprised it happened as the rating formula/calculation has always been different for males and females. And for at least the last 10 years ladies' tees were rated under the USGA process and in England (at least) the men's tees were rated under the EGU (as was) process.
What happened when the boys progressed to yellow/white tees? Were they given new handicaps?

But are you talking about CONGU Club Handicaps?
 
Last edited:
It is worth trying to get the following points across to whoever is responsible at your club

a. General
An Authorized Association is responsible for determining and issuing Course
Ratings and Slope Ratings for all of the golf courses within its jurisdiction (see
definition of golf course).
Course Ratings must be reviewed periodically and revised and reissued as
necessary. New golf courses can change frequently during the first years after
construction and must be re-rated within five years of the initial rating date.
Thereafter, golf courses must be re-rated at least once every 10 years.

C. Tee Markers
The tee markers used to designate each set of tees on a golf course should be
consistent in name, colour and/or design and distinguishable from the tee
markers used for other sets of tees. It is strongly recommended that the
Authorized Association issues guidance to golf clubs as to how these avoid any
association with gender or age.
 
So on the chart outside the pro shop, I can look up my playing handicap for each tee. Blue (old white), mens, White (old yellow), mens, Yellow (old red), womens.

So in the interests of inclusively, the colours of the markers have been changed, and the course rated for each tee, for men and women. But, the ladies tees are still officially referred to as the ladies tees on this chart.
 
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