Putting with pin in - sick of it!

[Orikoru]

Bolt the pin down and make from a strong metal so doesn't sway

Problem solved

Never remove them again

As long as the flagsticks are thin I wouldn't mind that.

 

[PJ87]

Definitely including my PP in the comp at the weekend that had several bounce out. To be fair we had been turning the device around so the edges were face on and giving the ball the largest point of entry and he hadn't bothered both times so hit the device side on although in his defence neither but were running at pace and in my opinion and under normal circumstances would definitely have dropped without a flag, and 8/10 times dropped if it had hit the pin alone. It is annoying especially in a competitive round but far better that than no comps or even no golf

No offence homer but "in your opinion" means nout with facts. So many putts look "100%" in before lipping out, stopping over the hole.. etc that nobody can judge truly that it makes any difference at all

It's a mental thing. If you don't like it then it affects your outlook of the hole. Oh without the flag that would be in

 

[clubchamp98]

https://golf.com/news/tournaments/d...d-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/amp/

Well science says it's better with pin in but who's to argue with science

Why can’t you argue with science.?
Scientist get things wrong all the time .
That’s why they do “experiments “and lots don’t work before they find the answer.
To many variants in golf to be scientific imo ,
If you don’t like the flag in all the science in the world won’t convince you it’s better.
It’s a personal thing.

 

[Grant85]

in fairness I've seen different 'studies' find different results on whether you should leave it in or out.

Suggests to me there are too many variables for it to be a simple leave it on or take it out kind of answer.

If you are a 'drop it in' putter it will make zero difference. If you are a 'take out the break' kind of putter then you perhaps need to middle the flag to get it to stay, otherwise you might lose out on a few that aren't right in the middle.

 

[PJ87]

Why can’t you argue with science.?
Scientist get things wrong all the time .
That’s why they do “experiments “and lots don’t work before they find the answer.
To many variants in golf to be scientific imo ,
If you don’t like the flag in all the science in the world won’t convince you it’s better.
It’s a personal thing.

That's not science tho that's personal preference. Scientifically proven to have no adverse affects to putting

It's all in people's heads

 

[Canary_Yellow]

"

1. Assuming the pin is securely in place, standing vertical and not swaying in the wind, the hole is 4.25” wide.
2. The diameter of a standard flagstick is 0.5” (some pins taper to ¾” and even 1” above the hole)."

It's these things that make the difference though. Often as murph said, the pin will be leaning slightly so the ball cannot actually drop between it and the edge of the hole. That is why they introduced the rule saying any part of the ball below the surface = holed. And if you hit a firm putt to that side it could definitely bounce out when it would have dropped without the pin.

A lot of the testing they did as well was hitting the pin straight on on a straight putt, which is lot different to striking it at an angle from a left to right or right to left putt.

How does a breaking putt make any difference? It should still be going in the middle of the hole, just from a different angle. If it's not going in the middle of the hole, it's at risk of lipping out if struck too firmly anyway, and the pin shouldn't alter that.

 

[Orikoru]

How does a breaking putt make any difference? It should still be going in the middle of the hole, just from a different angle. If it's not going in the middle of the hole, it's at risk of lipping out if struck too firmly anyway, and the pin shouldn't alter that.

If it hits the pin at a slight angle it can deflect away whereas hitting it head on takes the pace off it and it's more likely to drop. As discussed, if it's leaning to that side by even a couple of millimetres that affects the whole equation as well.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not bothering me in the slightest tbh. And in the weeks we have had them I have only see one putt or chip ping out off the rod of the lifting device. It was a chip from the side of the green and the player forgot to have the lever turned so that the rod was at the back of the flagstick. Our flagstick diameter is unchanged if the lifting device rod is tucked behind the flagstick. And as the lifting lever is also hidden by the flagstick the flagstick visually looks normal.

Yes - a ball taking a borrow that means it is coming in from a wide angle might hit the rod - but if I think my putt is coming in from wide - then I might just tweak the position of the rod accordingly. But as the putt is likely to be travelling slowly coming in from a wide angle and it won't be clattering the flagstick anyway - I usually don't bother.

That said two guys I played with over the weekend either used a hand on the lever to lift the ball out of the hole - or picked the ball out ignoring the device - and turned the rod to the back of the flagstick using a hand. I didn't ask. I should have. Next time I see either I will.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

If it hits the pin at a slight angle it can deflect away whereas hitting it head on takes the pace off it and it's more likely to drop. As discussed, if it's leaning to that side by even a couple of millimetres that affects the whole equation as well.

The pin leaning impacts straight putts too. Same with hitting the pin at a slight angle. I don't understand the difference you're suggesting between a straight putt and a breaking putt. The hole is a circle and all putts are straight for the last inch before the ball drops.

Or am I misunderstanding and you weren't referring to breaking putts, but rather any putt that is say 1/4 of a ball left or right of centre? On reflection, I think that's what you must mean, and yes, then I think it comes down to how thick the pin is, a thicker pin will deflect balls that are already nearer the edge of the hole and more at risk of not dropping.

The hole is 4.25 inches, the ball is 1.68 inches. A 0.75inch flag stick is therefore going to come into play for putts up to 0.07 inches from the edge of the cup (i.e. more or less every single putt!)

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I find that surprising, I've only played 3 different courses since lockdown but I haven't noticed any. maybe I've just picked courses with smaller flagsticks or perhaps it's just the way I putt.

The odd course has really chunky flag sticks and I think they are the issue. I've only come across one like that, can't remember which course it was now but they were a problem. The majority are somewhere in the middle and are fine unless you are 2ft from the flag and ram it. I've seen the odd one of them bounce out but then they were over hit anyway. The best I have seen, this was last year, unsurprisingly was at Close House. They had very thin sticks and we played all 18 holes without removing the flags once as it was simply unecessary. If you are bouncing out there then the ball was never going to drop without the flag anyway.

My course is somewhere in the middle and it is not an issue but I suspect we, and you, and lucky with what we have. I know I played in an open 2 weeks ago and the 3 pp from Tyneside were beside themselves with joy at playing a course without the lifting device as they were seeing frequent bounce outs.

 

[Shooter McPowick]

https://golf.com/news/tournaments/d...d-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/amp/

Well science says it's better with pin in but who's to argue with science

All depends on how thick the pin and ball retrieval device are. Like I said, there were 2 putts that without a shadow of doubt would have dropped with no pin. I cant think of a single occurrence of where the pin helped the ball go in.

 

[PJ87]

All depends on how thick the pin and ball retrieval device are. Like I said, there were 2 putts that without a shadow of doubt would have dropped with no pin. I cant think of a single occurrence of where the pin helped the ball go in.

In your opinion tho.. your judgement

How many times with the flag out has a putt lipped , rimmed or gone round world when it looks "without a shadow of doubt" in

 

[rulefan]

I haven't had or seen a 'bounce off' yet.
It's all in the mind.

 

[ScienceBoy]

Anyone hating being forced to put with the pin in?

So, what do you think?

I really like it, hope it stays but the lifters must improve over time.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In your opinion tho.. your judgement

How many times with the flag out has a putt lipped , rimmed or gone round world when it looks "without a shadow of doubt" in

I had quite a few hard 'lip-outs' and 'run over-the-edges' over the last weekend (mostly not great putts has to be said). The greens were fast and the holes had been freshly and very sharply cut for the comps held. I didn't blame the holes (well I might have the first couple of times...)

 

[LincolnShep]

Wouldn't bother me if I never took another flag out ever again. It hasn't affected my scores in the slightest. We're all aware that the flag is in before we hit the putt; so we need to make a stroke that accounts for it. If we ram it at the back of the cup then it's going to bounce out - so probably a good idea to do something else.

 

[Orikoru]

Wouldn't bother me if I never took another flag out ever again. It hasn't affected my scores in the slightest. We're all aware that the flag is in before we hit the putt; so you make a stroke that accounts for it. If you try ramming it at the back of the cup then it's going to bounce out - so don't do that.

That actually makes putting more difficult though. Often the best way to hole a 2 footer is hit it firmly through the break, if the flag in means you can't do that then some people are going to suffer.

 

[LincolnShep]

That actually makes putting more difficult though. Often the best way to hole a 2 footer is hit it firmly through the break, if the flag in means you can't do that then some people are going to suffer.

Yes, the people who can't adapt to the temporary restriction will suffer. I agree but don't care!

 

[clubchamp98]

That's not science tho that's personal preference. Scientifically proven to have no adverse affects to putting

It's all in people's heads

Yes I do agree it’s in people’s heads .
But most golf is played between the ears ,so I think it does affect some golfers .
I really don’t think it’s proven to have no adverse affects though.
As people have said the flag stops some putts going in.
I think science and golf don’t mix.!

 

[clubchamp98]

Not bothering me in the slightest tbh. And in the weeks we have had them I have only see one putt or chip ping out off the rod of the lifting device. It was a chip from the side of the green and the player forgot to have the lever turned so that the rod was at the back of the flagstick. Our flagstick diameter is unchanged if the lifting device rod is tucked behind the flagstick. And as the lifting lever is also hidden by the flagstick the flagstick visually looks normal.

Yes - a ball taking a borrow that means it is coming in from a wide angle might hit the rod - but if I think my putt is coming in from wide - then I might just tweak the position of the rod accordingly. But as the putt is likely to be travelling slowly coming in from a wide angle and it won't be clattering the flagstick anyway - I usually don't bother.

That said two guys I played with over the weekend either used a hand on the lever to lift the ball out of the hole - or picked the ball out ignoring the device - and turned the rod to the back of the flagstick using a hand. I didn't ask. I should have. Next time I see either I will.

If you “tweak the rod accordingly” to help your putt is that not breaking the rules.
Not sure which one but that is like backstopping to aid your putt.
Only asking not accusing.