Nomads to get official handicaps

[Swango1980]

I'd say you're doing nomads a disservice and giving far too much credit to club members. Any nomad keen enough to want to pay to get a handicap is keen enough to know the rules. And I've regularly heard some pretty basic "misunderstandings" of the rules from people who have been members for years.

Would you not say that is contradictory?

Any nomad keen enough to pay for a handicap will be keen enough to know the rules (about £40 with no serious monitoring of handicap by peers necessarily)

Any member keen enough to pay for membership (more than £40, probably much much more), is susceptible to "misunderstandings" of the rules (yet will likely be under the scrutiny much more of many of their peers)

If you go back to my previous point, I don't think I am wrong. If I was, then it would be a non issue and nobody would be bothered about nomad handicaps at all.

 

[Beedee]

Would you not say that is contradictory?

Any nomad keen enough to pay for a handicap will be keen enough to know the rules (about £40 with no serious monitoring of handicap by peers necessarily)

Any member keen enough to pay for membership (more than £40, probably much much more), is susceptible to "misunderstandings" of the rules (yet will likely be under the scrutiny much more of many of their peers)

If you go back to my previous point, I don't think I am wrong. If I was, then it would be a non issue and nobody would be bothered about nomad handicaps at all.

I can see your point. However, the nomad is already paying plenty for their golf, just not all at the same place. The handicap is an extra expense that only the keen will pay. And let's be honest, the "scrutiny of their peers" doesn't do that much to prevent some current members from irregularities when it comes to open comps (short game wizards).

Going by my own experience, I'm a club member and also play in a couple of societies with a fairly even mix of club members and nomads. I'd say the rules knowledge is fairly consistent between the club members and the nomads. Apart from complete beginners (on both sides) the average standard of rules knowledge is decent but not outstanding. I'd say my interest in the rules is better than average but still not exceptional, and I've frequently been shocked at members' lack of knowledge and/or support of rule myths and/or massively outdated rules.

Maybe it's the societies I play in that are unusual. We have strict "no gimmes" rules. With the exception of the "lost ball/OOB drop on the fairway for a 2-shot penalty" local rule (to try and keep things moving with no walking back), we follow all rules that CONGU would approve of. So everyone has to get a decent working knowledge of the rules pretty quickly.

 

[rosecott]

They seemed to put a lot of attention in trying to tell us many independent golfers know the rules. One would imagine it is a sensitive topic. If they have to make that much effort in reminding us this, one might think that many also have very limited knowledge on the rules (if that wasn't the case, why mention it at all?)

Perhaps the simple answer is that this is something that has come out of the consultation process so EG thinks it appropriate to address it.

 

[Jigger]

I’ve seen plenty of infringements by club members too.

 

[rulefan]

They are mainly foreign entrants who enter open competition balloted events and get in with their low handicap. I am not suggesting this has happened in the past with CONGU handicaps but the option is now open as our elite and low single figure players can return general play score in favourable conditions to improve their handicap prior to the season.

But didn't you say This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive. ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?

 

[Old Skier]

As someone who attends county meetings including HC committee ones I always find it funny when clubs continue to bring up that OTHER clubs players lack of rules knowledge and failings in OTHER clubs when it comes to HC policing, its always OTHER CLUBS.

Now we can point fingers at nomads, yippee

 

[SammmeBee]

But didn't you say This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive. ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?

They just pick and choose where/when they play to maintain a vanity handicap so they can get in these events. Might have gone up .1 or .2 then back to the 5000 yard home course, where their limited ability doesn’t get shown up....

 

[mikejohnchapman]

But didn't you say This was very evident in many national level amateur events where people playing rarely are competitive. ?

Are 'favourable conditions' really prevalent prior to the season?

I have clearly touched a nerve so I apologise.

I have been involved at Senior amateur events which were open to foreign entrants (eg the British), also at the seniors open where pre-qualification operates for amateurs. In these cases entrance is balloted and a large group of entrants are from the USA. Whilst I accept playing in different conditions can be challenging, in many cases their scoring rarely reflects their handicap. I have had several conversations with players who regard having such a low handicap as enabling them to enter many competitions in Europe. They were quite open about this and the way they play in friendy conditions / courses to achieve this.

As far as prior to the season is concerned - quite a few were from the southern states and hence I would argue the conditions were favourable.

Ask a lot of senior county players who try to enter these competitions - they might have a view of what used to be the case.

Let me stress that this was prior to WHS and hence the playing field has been levelled a lot.

 

[Swango1980]

As someone who attends county meetings including HC committee ones I always find it funny when clubs continue to bring up that OTHER clubs players lack of rules knowledge and failings in OTHER clubs when it comes to HC policing, its always OTHER CLUBS.

Now we can point fingers at nomads, yippee

There are certainly plenty of members at my club who have limited knowledge of the rules. Some who think they are rules gurus, but get even the most basic ones wrong.

But, they are in a position to be challenged. By playing with different people with different knowledge, combined with discussion at the bar after, talking to Committee and referring to the Rules book after.

There are a lot of safety nets that don't apply to non-member golfers who typically just play with their mates. Why would there be. If I was playing in a comp and a rules issue came up, I'd do my best to advice a player what process to take. If I was playing with my mates, who are not members and just play for fun, if I even started to explain many rules, they'd tell me where to go before I get to my second sentence.

As members, we probably take what we do know about the rules for granted, yet most of that knowledge came from playing in comps with other people. Even if they got it wrong, it encourages most of us to find out if it was correct, or come on this forum to ask. Before I joined a club in 2005, not a chance I'd do any of that. I knew very basic stuff as I watched golf on TV. But, i'd happily drop a ball wherever suited me best. I wouldn't have taken 2 club length relief for unplayable if I still couldn't play ball, I'd just drop it away from the bush or tree it was in so I had a nice swing and line to green. Didn't even occur to me that this was incorrect. Had I been playing with people outside my social circle, in a competition, I'd imagine sooner or later someone would call me up on this.

 

[gopher99]

You mean to tell me after all this time I have been playing golf there are rules.?. I just go out and play to have fun and meet new people.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There are certainly plenty of members at my club who have limited knowledge of the rules. Some who think they are rules gurus, but get even the most basic ones wrong.

But, they are in a position to be challenged. By playing with different people with different knowledge, combined with discussion at the bar after, talking to Committee and referring to the Rules book after.

There are a lot of safety nets that don't apply to non-member golfers who typically just play with their mates. Why would there be. If I was playing in a comp and a rules issue came up, I'd do my best to advice a player what process to take. If I was playing with my mates, who are not members and just play for fun, if I even started to explain many rules, they'd tell me where to go before I get to my second sentence.

As members, we probably take what we do know about the rules for granted, yet most of that knowledge came from playing in comps with other people. Even if they got it wrong, it encourages most of us to find out if it was correct, or come on this forum to ask. Before I joined a club in 2005, not a chance I'd do any of that. I knew very basic stuff as I watched golf on TV. But, i'd happily drop a ball wherever suited me best. I wouldn't have taken 2 club length relief for unplayable if I still couldn't play ball, I'd just drop it away from the bush or tree it was in so I had a nice swing and line to green. Didn't even occur to me that this was incorrect. Had I been playing with people outside my social circle, in a competition, I'd imagine sooner or later someone would call me up on this.

You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules -

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather.

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint

 

[D-S]

You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules -

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather.

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint

Though I think much of what you say in this post is true, lo and behold the Club who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer. Players currently (sometimes for good reason) have a lot of suspicions about very good scores coming in from ‘away’ members in Opens - we have all seen some ridiculous scores in all sorts of formats. Once a ‘nomad’ or ‘nomad team’ posts such a score all the suspicions will be doubled and the Club’s entry policy, rightly or wrongly, will be blamed; this may affect future entry levels if a competition falls into disrepute.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Let's be honest, currently people who are winning clubs Opens are members of a golf club. Plenty of accusations about the integrity handicaps of regular winners of these events.
Saddens me that people are automatically suggesting nomads are going to have dodgy handicaps to hoover up prizes in Open comps.

I know quite a lot of lads who have given up memberships (including a couple of County golfers) for varying reasons but usually work or family, meaning they are wasting money in having a club membership. In instances like this nomad golf would work well for them allowing them to play occasionally keep a hcap and play a few odd comps.

Personally I don't play any 4bbb comps as its a bandits charter, anyone moaning about nomads is looking in the wrong place.

 

[Swango1980]

You are being very judgemental towards people just because they are not a member of a club

A lot of the nomads out there have been in the past members of golf clubs and they are fully aware of the basic rules

Many of them play in organised societies as well as playing with friends and members of clubs

It’s suggestions like yours that make people suspicious of “nomads” and rules when it’s clearly false nonsense

There are thousands of club golfers who when playing for fun don’t follow all the rules -

The people who want official handicaps but aren’t members of golf clubs will be the ones that want to be able to play in some handicap comps and those nomads will be ex members who know the rules

The people who want to have a WHS Handicap aren’t you the people who just have a thrash around in a buggy on a Saturday morning when the weather.

People are putting up barriers that don’t need to be there and have this false idiot that because you are a member of a club you suddenly become a saint

I am just giving an objective view, and attach no ill feeling towards a certain amount of ignorance of the rules, especially when a player may not have the same level of knowledge and communication around them.

If we were to simply trust all golfers knew the rules and treated the handicapping system with integrity, then tell me this? Why do the rules of golf have penalties for breaches? Why do club committees have disciplinary procedures for major issues? What is the point in a handicap Committee, when all it could require is one person to to the basic donkey work?

The truth is, even members of clubs are penalised under the rules of golf many times, and sadly sometimes even disciplined (maybe even kicked out of a club).

Who holds non members to account? Their mates?

I am clearly not saying every non member is a cheat, or just plain ignorant of the rules. The majority are not. But, as D-S says, as soon as a nomad golfer wins a competition, with any score to get honest, suspicions will be raised by members. More so than if it was simply an Away player.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I am just giving an objective view, and attach no ill feeling towards a certain amount of ignorance of the rules, especially when a player may not have the same level of knowledge and communication around them.

If we were to simply trust all golfers knew the rules and treated the handicapping system with integrity, then tell me this? Why do the rules of golf have penalties for breaches? Why do club committees have disciplinary procedures for major issues? What is the point in a handicap Committee, when all it could require is one person to to the basic donkey work?

So you have all that at all levels of golf but who are the main people that enforce the rules - the players , your overriding attitude appears to be that you can trust a club golfer but you can’t trust a nomad

The truth is, even members of clubs are penalised under the rules of golf many times, and sadly sometimes even disciplined (maybe even kicked out of a club).

Who holds non members to account? Their mates?

Surely it’s the same people who hold each other to account - their player partners , the same level of trust for a club golfer and their player partners should be levelled at a nomad at their playing partners. Do club golfers have rules officials with each group or do you trust the club players to enforce the rules and integrity of the game - and why can’t the same level of trust be given to a nomad ?

I am clearly not saying every non member is a cheat, or just plain ignorant of the rules. The majority are not. But, as D-S says, as soon as a nomad golfer wins a competition, with any score to get honest, suspicions will be raised by members. More so than if it was simply an Away player.

So suspicions raised by people who failed to win - that’s the only reason why people suddenly start to cry - when they have lost and someone played better than them.

Myself and my partner in the recent county champs had the same level of accusations aimed towards by two scratch county players when they saw we won by a considerable margin - it was just sour grapes on their part and they were told to politely wind their necks in

 

[Crumplezone]

most do not sit down with a rule book and learn the rules before a knock about with their buddies. If they did, I'd applaud their enthusiasm.

How do you know they don't? That's exactly what I did.

 

[Swango1980]

So you have all that at all levels of golf but who are the main people that enforce the rules - the players , your overriding attitude appears to be that you can trust a club golfer but you can’t trust a nomad



Surely it’s the same people who hold each other to account - their player partners , the same level of trust for a club golfer and their player partners should be levelled at a nomad at their playing partners. Do club golfers have rules officials with each group or do you trust the club players to enforce the rules and integrity of the game - and why can’t the same level of trust be given to a nomad ?



So suspicions raised by people who failed to win - that’s the only reason why people suddenly start to cry - when they have lost and someone played better than them.

Myself and my partner in the recent county champs had the same level of accusations aimed towards by two scratch county players when they saw we won by a considerable margin - it was just sour grapes on their part and they were told to politely wind their necks in

Sadly, you are ignoring most of the stuff I have said, and simply choosing to be offended by certain bits. I continually state not all non members are ignorant of rules, and not all members are fluent.

If the question was, what type of person is more academically capable, one that went to school all their lives, or one that never went to school?

The obvious answer is one that went to school. That is clear by looking at both national and international levels.

However, not everyone that went to school are academically capable. Whilst some who didn't go to school are brilliant academically.

I'm not trying to judge individual people. I'm just looking at it generally. Clearly it is an issue, as many others have shown their concerns on nomad golfers long before I've commented on the topic.

 

[rulefan]

Though I think much of what you say in this post is true, lo and behold the Club who’s Open is won with a very good score by a Nomad golfer. Players currently (sometimes for good reason) have a lot of suspicions about very good scores coming in from ‘away’ members in Opens .

If they are 'Nomads' as opposed to 'Away' players, how did did they get a handicap ?

 

[Swango1980]

How do you know they don't? That's exactly what I did.

Well, I didn't. Nor did my mates. But, well done to you though.

 

[Swango1980]

If they are 'Nomads' as opposed to 'Away' players, how did did they get a handicap ?

The very topic of this chat is the nomad golfer getting a handicap.