Wrong Handicaps in Matchplay.

[dazzler]

What hasn't been determined is whether the incorrect declaration made any difference to the number of strokes received/given. If there is no difference then the argument is moot anyway.

Yes, it did - 1 stroke. All players have agreed to that.

 

[dazzler]

There's one thing I'm not clear on from the OP - which may (but equally, may not) affect what the more knowledgable have said..

The OP said that Team 1 stated a handicap of 'X' (which as it happens, was 1 too many). OP also stated that Team 2 ' ... thought it wasn't right but didn't verify it ...' What's not clear to me, is whether Team 2, in any way, said anything or otherwise took it up with Team 1 before the match started? (ie did Team 1 know that Team 2 had doubts - and consequently did Team 1 have any inkling that they may have declared a wrong handicap?)

In short, a player on Team 1 got a handicap reduction from a 4ball comp which he didn't know. We've checked and his playing partner on the day has filled and entered the scorecard in wrong, but ultimately it's been signed and verified.
Team 2 worked it out on his new handicap the day before, but when they got to the first tee they all worked out the handicaps on his old one.

Team 1 didn't know they'd even played off the wrong handicap at all until a few days later when the matter was brought up by Team 2.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes, it did - 1 stroke. All players have agreed to that.

Fair enough...i guess it comes down to does 3.2c take precedence over 5.7(a) mitigated by the fact that team 2 failed to protect their interests as described in 3.2d(4)

What was the actual match score?

 

[rulie]

In short, a player on Team 1 got a handicap reduction from a 4ball comp which he didn't know. We've checked and his playing partner on the day has filled and entered the scorecard in wrong, but ultimately it's been signed and verified.
Team 2 worked it out on his new handicap the day before, but when they got to the first tee they all worked out the handicaps on his old one.

Team 1 didn't know they'd even played off the wrong handicap at all until a few days later when the matter was brought up by Team 2.

So you agreed on the first tee to play with those handicaps and didn’t object till a few days later?

 

[nickjdavis]

So you agreed on the first tee to play with those handicaps and didn’t object till a few days later?

Dont think it was the OP....I think he is involved in determining if a DQ is relevant.

 

[Oldbutwise]

Foursomes Match Play

Team 1 have stated handicaps where one player stated a handicap a shot higher than he should have been getting by accident.
Team 2 have played off their correct handicaps.

Team 2 thought it wasn't right, but didn't verify it and agreed to tee off and completed the match.

Team 1 won the match and written the match result on our score sheet.


Team 2 have later re-checked the handicaps and found the match was played off wrong handicaps.

They've therefore pointed out Rule 3.2c which states the player should be DQ'd.

However, 5.a(7) states the Match is Final once posted.

Rule 20 also states the player can only request a ruling if both a) They did not know about the wrong handicap - which the player has admitted he *thought* it was right. and b) the opponent did not know they had given the wrong handicap.

We believe the match has been finalised and should stand, but understand their point about the wrong handicaps.

Has anyone encountered this and what was the outcome?

As you state, Rule 20.1b(3) is quite clear that the result will stand if the player was not aware of the breach before the result of the match was final. Team 2 has learned a lesson!

 

[dazzler]

Fair enough...i guess it comes down to does 3.2c take precedence over 5.7(a) mitigated by the fact that team 2 failed to protect their interests as described in 3.2d(4)

What was the actual match score?

The match was won on extra holes, on a Stroke Index where that extra shot would have made the difference.

So you agreed on the first tee to play with those handicaps and didn’t object till a few days later?

Ah, yes. Apologies, I'm not one of the players. I'm on the committee tasked with dealing with it.

 

[clubchamp98]

How can you play off a higher handicap go to extra holes and win the match.

That’s against everything that’s drummed into golfers from day one.
Even if the result is posted, the fact he’s played of a wrong handicap should trump everything.
I am shocked the rules can overlook this.

 

[Slab]

How can you play off a higher handicap go to extra holes and win the match.

That’s against everything that’s drummed into golfers from day one.
Even if the result is posted, the fact he’s played of a wrong handicap should trump everything.
I am shocked the rules can overlook this.

Yeah on the face of it team 2 seem hard done by… but then I think that it wasn’t raised until “a few days later” and I’m thinking there has to be some kind of cut off for the DQ (& I know there is) and I’m flipflopping again on what side of the case I’d be on

no real winners on this one

 

[dazzler]

UPDATE: Union have advised that whilst unfortunate, the information came to light at a later stage, so ruling can be made.

Team 1 are disqualified due to playing off wrong handicaps.

 

[doublebogey7]

How can you play off a higher handicap go to extra holes and win the match.

That’s against everything that’s drummed into golfers from day one.
Even if the result is posted, the fact he’s played of a wrong handicap should trump everything.
I am shocked the rules can overlook this.

There has to be a time when the results are final. When else do you suggest?

 

[dazzler]

There has to be a time when the results are final. When else do you suggest?

Our concern was, do we stop the next round being played? What happens if it's played then we have to retroactively DQ?

 

[clubchamp98]

There has to be a time when the results are final. When else do you suggest?

Check your handicap before you tee off yourself then you know how many shots you get.
If you get it wrong that’s your own fault
Don’t expect your opponents to do it.
People have no accountability now “ just let the app sort it out”

Once it was apparent he played off a higher cap that’s it DQ no exceptions.

 

[doublebogey7]

Check your handicap before you tee off yourself then you know how many shots you get.
If you get it wrong that’s your own fault
Don’t expect your opponents to do it.
People have no accountability now “ just let the app sort it out”

Once it was apparent he played off a higher cap that’s it DQ no exceptions.

So just prior to the final being played it is discovered that one of the finalists played off an incorrect handicap in the first round, now what happens?

Rules are clear, it is for all players to look after their own interests, thats sounds like full accountability to me.

 

[Colin L]

UPDATE: Union have advised that whilst unfortunate, the information came to light at a later stage, so ruling can be made.

Team 1 are disqualified due to playing off wrong handicaps.

Really? Seems to me someone has failed to read the whole of 20.1b(3)

Ruling Request Made After Result of Match Is Final. When a player makes a request for a ruling after the result of the match is final:

• The Committee will give the player a ruling only if both of these apply:
  
  • The request is based on facts the player was not aware of before the result of the match was final, and
  • The opponent breached Rule 3.2d(1) (giving wrong number of strokes taken) or Rule 3.2d(2) (failing to tell the player about a penalty) and knew of the breach before the result of the match was final.
• There is no time limit on giving such a ruling.

Two conditions have to be satisfied for a request made after the result is final to be considered and in this matte of the handicaps, only one is met. The facts of the matter became known after the result was final, but neither Rule 3.2(d)1 nor Rule 3.2d(2) is involved.

Edit: It is evident from the condition within the second condition - that the player had to know of the breach before the result was final - that the rulemakers have it in mind to limit the exception to the general principle that nothing gets changed after a result is final not only to breaches of these two particular rules but also only when the player knew about the breaches before the result was final. In short, a player in that situation is concealing a breach he knows about and is, to put no finer point upon it, cheating.

 

[clubchamp98]

So just prior to the final being played it is discovered that one of the finalists played off an incorrect handicap in the first round, now what happens?

Rules are clear, it is for all players to look after their own interests, thats sounds like full accountability to me.

There out !
They should not be there and like Man City will have an asterix after their name on the board.

It’s not up to anyone else to check your handicap it’s your responsibility to disclose what it is on the tee ( imo of course.)

Golf rules are very strict I can’t see why this is allowed because the result ( wrong result ) has been published.
Time should not help anyone who has basically cheated even unwittingly.

 

[doublebogey7]

There out !
They should not be there and like Man City will have an asterix after their name on the board.

It’s not up to anyone else to check your handicap it’s your responsibility to disclose what it is on the tee ( imo of course.)

Golf rules are very strict I can’t see why this is allowed because the result ( wrong result ) has been published.
Time should not help anyone who has basically cheated even unwittingly.

So how do you continue with the competition.

Do you think this should also apply to other rules breaches that were unknown to either party at the time?

Please can you explain to me the concept of cheating unwillingly? And would it apply to any rules breach?

 

[Swango1980]

It very easy to look up your opponents' handicaps in advance and to check first thing on the morning of a match in case of any changes.

Question: is it now the responsibility of the opponents to know the handicap of the guys they are playing? If so, why have a Rule at all disqualifying anyone who claims too high a handicap?

 

[Colin L]

Question: is it now the responsibility of the opponents to know the handicap of the guys they are playing? If so, why have a Rule at all disqualifying anyone who claims too high a handicap?

It is a player's responsibility to protect his own interests and it is obviously in his interest to make sure his opponent doesn't get more strokes the he is entitled to. The Rule is there for the Committee to use to penalise the opponent who declares a wrong handicap and gets more strokes than he should. The player can't do that.

 

[clubchamp98]

So how do you continue with the competition.

Do you think this should also apply to other rules breaches that were unknown to either party at the time?

Please can you explain to me the concept of cheating unwillingly? And would it apply to any rules breach?

You don’t they are DQ simple.
Whoever there playing gets a bye unless there’s time for the opponents they cheated to play in their place.

Yes why have rules if you’re going to give them the benefit of the dought.
Ignorance is no defence in a lot of things including sport.!

Yes if you think your off 19 but your really 18 that’s your own fault for not checking.
It’s never been easier to check you can do it without getting out of bed now on the app.
If that extra shot your not entitled to wins you the game how is that fair to your opponent.?