LIV Golf

[LincolnShep]

Not unusually, absolute rubbish! Please specify the ranking of any fellow club member (to retain anonymity)!

Your index is a ranking, the numbers can be ranked. WHS adjusts your score differentials based on the difficulty of the course on which you're playing, and the other scores returned on the same day. OWGR adjusts the points awarded based on the event ranking and the strength of the field. The comparison is absolutely spot on.

 

[Mel Smooth]

We are not ranked when we put in a score to Golf England

OWGR is not convoluted, how do you think it is

There is no ambiguity over qualifying criteria, it is published to anyone who wants to read it

It can accommodate "events" like that, as long as they are part of a tour that is already sanctioned by the OWGR

I’m pretty sure you are ranked when you submit a score to England golf, infact if you go on HowDidiDo, you can see where you are ranked within your club - please explain to me how that is not true?

The rest of your post, you’ve chosen to miss my point. Well done.

 

[LincolnShep]

"Maybe it's time for a rival ranking organisation, with commercial sponsorship, that's independent of any of the tours."[/QUOTE]
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Nothing stopping .....You, Me, LIV or anyone else from doing just that. The pgatour would continue to use their sanctioned OWGR Org. for their purposes and LIV or anyone else could use theirs. Now will the major tournaments accept the results is something else.[

Lack of funding stops me doing it.
Lack of independence stops LIV doing it.
Only you know what's stopping you doing it, if you say nothing then I sincerely hope you have a go because I'd welcome a ranking system that is independent.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Not unusually, absolute rubbish! Please specify the ranking of any fellow club member (to retain anonymity)!

What does this image show please?

 

[Ian_George]

Your index is a ranking, the numbers can be ranked. WHS adjusts your score differentials based on the difficulty of the course on which you're playing, and the other scores returned on the same day. OWGR adjusts the points awarded based on the event ranking and the strength of the field. The comparison is absolutely spot on.

No it's not! It's a rating! A rating can subsequently be used to create a ranking, but is not, of itself, a ranking! Same as Course Rating or Slope Reting are not, of themselves, rankings. But are certainly ratings! I'll pose the same challenge to you, as I did to Mel...Show me the ranking of one of your fellow club members!

 

[r0wly86]

That's incorrect. OWGR has six equal stakeholders, two of them are PGAT and DPWT, along with PGA of America, R&A, USGA and Augusta National. So the two major tours have a 33% stake, that's ownership.

It is not ownership in the traditional sense. They do not take profit from the enterprise, it simply set up at a Limited company for the limited protection it affords. It is set up more like the European Council, made up of all the Heads of State of the member countries, they do now own the EU but basically sit up at the table to run it and governance level.

33% is not even a majority, that is presuming that PGAT and DPWT will always vote the same way.

We also do not know how voting happens in OWGR, whether to pass new rules a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote is required. Either way the OWGR, or even PGAT have suggested that should LIV reach the criteria that they will be blocked from joining. In fact on the contrary OWGR have said that LIV need to reach the criteria

 

[r0wly86]

What does this image show please? View attachment 45073

It shows a list of handicaps, it isn't a ranking. The closest you could get to a ranking is an Order of Merit, but even that is flawed, and that works on a much simpler scale, of everyone playing at the same course

 

[LincolnShep]

It is not ownership in the traditional sense. They do not take profit from the enterprise, it simply set up at a Limited company for the limited protection it affords. It is set up more like the European Council, made up of all the Heads of State of the member countries, they do now own the EU but basically sit up at the table to run it and governance level.

33% is not even a majority, that is presuming that PGAT and DPWT will always vote the same way.

We also do not know how voting happens in OWGR, whether to pass new rules a simple majority, qualified majority, or unanimous vote is required. Either way the OWGR, or even PGAT have suggested that should LIV reach the criteria that they will be blocked from joining. In fact on the contrary OWGR have said that LIV need to reach the criteria

Profit is irrelevant, there isn't any - the question is one of control. Jay Monahan and Keith Pelley sit on the governing board of the OWGR. It is not independent of the tours so the fact that they do not want to sanction LIV events should not be a surprise to anyone. All it means is that the majors now have to review their qualification criteria and decide if a ranking system that ignores loads of the world's best players is still useful to them.

 

[BubbaP]

It shows a list of handicaps, it isn't a ranking. The closest you could get to a ranking is an Order of Merit, but even that is flawed, and that works on a much simpler scale, of everyone playing at the same course

Suspect this is going a tad off topic, but when I go onto England Golf, I see something like this

(yep I'm not very good ) but that kind of looks like a ranking to me.....

 

[Ian_George]

What does this image show please? View attachment 45073

It shows a set of ratings! Though it has been ranked

 

[LincolnShep]

No it's not! It's a rating! A rating can subsequently be used to create a ranking, but is not, of itself, a ranking! Same as Course Rating or Slope are not, of themselves, rankings. But are certainly ratings! I'll pose the same challenge to you, as I did to Mel...Show me the ranking of one of your fellow club members!

If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
Honestly, this is so self evident I can't understand why you're being so obtuse.

 

[r0wly86]

Profit is irrelevant, there isn't any - the question is one of control. Jay Monahan and Keith Pelley sit on the governing board of the OWGR. It is not independent of the tours so the fact that they do not want to sanction LIV events should not be a surprise to anyone. All it means is that the majors now have to review their qualification criteria and decide if a ranking system that ignores loads of the world's best players is still useful to them.

As above 33% is not control its a minority share, assuming dpwt and pgat alway got together, they would still need two more of stakeholders to vote with them to pass the 50%threshold

All of which is moot because neither PGAT or anyone has suggested that the entry criteria will be changed to stop LIV

 

[r0wly86]

If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.
Honestly, this is so self evident I can't understand why you're being so obtuse.

That is not the same thing as world tour rankings, it's not even remotely similar

 

[ColchesterFC]

I'm going go karting with my mates at the weekend. I have of course emailed the bosses of F1 to demand world championship points be awarded to us. Of course I understand that we don't meet their criteria for awarding those points but they need to change their system. Why should we have to change?

 

[LincolnShep]

That is not the same thing as world tour rankings, it's not even remotely similar

In what way is ordering one set of comparable numbers a ranking, and ordering another set of comparable numbers not a ranking?
When I want to find the relative position of a number in an ordered list, I use =RANK().
If it's good enough for Excel, it's good enough for me.

 

[LincolnShep]

I'm going go karting with my mates at the weekend. I have of course emailed the bosses of F1 to demand world championship points be awarded to us. Of course I understand that we don't meet their criteria for awarding those points but they need to change their system. Why should we have to change?

Scroll back a few pages and you'll see a number of other ridiculous comparisons; adding one more doesn't really further the debate.

 

[Swango1980]

Have we now concluded that we should just give all professional golfers a WHS Handicap Index, and we then have our new World Ranking system?

 

[Ian_George]

If you arrange the indices in numerical order, you are ranking club members.
When OWGR arrange the points gained in numerical order, they are ranking some pro golfers.
Ranking just means putting things (numbers in both of these cases) in order.

Agreed! But that's a separate process! Mel stated that simply returning a score (and the re-calc of your handicap) created a ranking. It doesn't! There's a separate process required, same as there is for calculating playing handicap from HI and Slope (2 more examples of ratings)!

 

[cleveland52]

Lack of funding stops me doing it.
Lack of independence stops LIV doing it.
Only you know what's stopping you doing it, if you say nothing then I sincerely hope you have a go because I'd welcome a ranking system that is independent.

You're making my point.....short of your own system you must accept the established one that in affect.

 

[LincolnShep]

Have we now concluded that we should just give all professional golfers a WHS Handicap Index, and we then have our new World Ranking system?

Yes! Very productive brainstorming session. Well done everyone. I'll write up and circulate the minutes as usual.