LIV Golf

[Deleted member 15344]

I am mildly interested in LIV, but I don't want to read the same old over and over again, can you not understand that at least?

I drop into this thread now and again to see what's going on, but to make sure I've not missed anything interesting I'd need to read umpteen pages of schoolyard squabbles.
I don't have an interest in that, hence my frustration with the way so many threads here go.

There are a lot of good stuff in the thread in regards the differences and issues etc - as with a lot of “hot topics” there can be repeats etc

So LIV looking after caddies isn’t an issue because you don’t want it to highlight that the PGA tour, don’t do the same or ensure the players can and do?

Hilarious.

Im not sure what you are reading so I’ll clarify

Up until LIV arrived not one single player or caddy spoke about how they were “mistreated”

The caddy issue is being used as a tool to point score against the PGAT as opposed imo being concerned about the caddy welfare

LIV can throw money at anything - giving caddies more money is a quick win - straight away it creates this apparent issue that caddies are being mistreated and underpaid - imo that’s a false narrative and it’s a tool being used by LIV to have “one up ship “ against the PGAT

It’s the same with giving players money when they miss a cut - it’s fine when a tour has a bottomless pit of money to throw around at everything and anything , not every tour has that luxury

I’m not going to praise an entity for giving more money to a lot of people who are already being paid very well.

But ultimately that’s is the core “solution” behind everything LIV do - give more money

Higher prize fund
Guarenteed multi millions regardless of performance
Players being part of a “team” and getting paid multi millions off the back of others playing well

Money in golf before LIV was sickening for many - for them to come along and just offer even more for many is disgusting. And I’m certainly not going to be sympathetic to millionaires and many of those caddies are

On your second point, I once bought some clubs off a guy who’s dad had caddied and they used to jump out of guesthouse / hotel windows to avoid paying the bill. Obviously conditions have improved since then, and guess what, they’ve just taken another step forwards in the last few months, thanks to you know what.

So all the tour caddies out there are that destitute they can’t pay hotel bills ?‍ - sorry I don’t believe that by any stretch for any caddy that is on the bag of someone who is playing regular pro golf on both of the main tours

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Seems some of the LiV boys have signed a letter to Peter Dawson uncle Greg has had written for them.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572228587604037639

it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

I haven't watched any LIV and really not interested but thought I'd take a look at this thread given the number of posts.

On the caddie point, in fairness they did try to sue the PGA tour 5 years back potentially over advertising on bibs and general view they didn't get respected as not allowed in clubhouses etc. Obviously if you get a good player they do very well, Lord has earnt millions but I expect it's not that easy outside top 100. 100th in 21 won $1.2m so caddie $120k based on 10% - taxes and yearly travel expenses including accommodation suggests it wouldn't be the wealthiest career.

 

[Imurg]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572228587604037639

it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler

But then they'd have to call themselves LLXXII (LEXI) ...does sound a bit sexier though..

 

[Swango1980]

But ultimately that’s is the core “solution” behind everything LIV do - give more money

Higher prize fund
Guarenteed multi millions regardless of performance
Players being part of a “team” and getting paid multi millions off the back of others playing well

Money in golf before LIV was sickening for many - for them to come along and just offer even more for many is disgusting. And I’m certainly not going to be sympathetic to millionaires and many of those caddies are



So all the tour caddies out there are that destitute they can’t pay hotel bills ?‍ - sorry I don’t believe that by any stretch for any caddy that is on the bag of someone who is playing regular pro golf on both of the main tours

I agree with this, but would at least add that the money players (and caddies) received before LIV was at least "earned" by the sport they play. The success of the sport allowed huge broadcasting deals and sponsorship, and therefore a lot of this money went the players way. Sure, if people compare their income to nurses, police, etc. they could fall into the argument that the golfers get a sickening amount of money. However, when looking at it from a business point of view, they are earning the money that fans and sponsors ultimately throw their way, so in that sense it is deserved (like any other good business model).

The issue with LIV is that this money the players are earning is no longer directly based on the interest they drum up. It is simply the fact that Saudi Arabia have chosen to invest billions just to get it off the ground. That sort of money is not sustainable through the golf itself, so it is little different to Elon Musk offering Bryson De Chambeau and a few others £500 million to quit the PGA Tour and play at his local course, and putting the coverage on youTube. If Saudi Arabia decided to quit investing in LIV, there wouldn't be LIV. Once it starts to become sustainable, then I'm sure there would be more positive feedback on it, obviously as many more fans would buy into it. I still struggle to see how it will get there though. Sure, it has attracted some top players. However, you can't discount the top players that have all but ruled out ever going to LIV. So, at best I can only ever see LIV ever drumming up similar interest to a minor PGA event that has a few top players. And, as LIV fans keep telling us, these types of events are not that popular anyway, not in comparison to the Majors.

 

[BubbaP]

And what is creating the interest?
99% of the chat about LIV is about money, defections, SA, points, money, GN, money, shotgun starts, money......
Barely anything about the golf itself...
There's been more interest in Bryson and the rope than whoever won at the weekend..
Doesn't that suggest that the actual golf isn't that interesting?

Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.

 

[BrianM]

Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.

Couldn‘t of put it better myself Iain.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572228587604037639

it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler

Anyone know what font BdC signs his name in? The guy is indeed a machine!!!

 

[BubbaP]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572228587604037639

it’s pretty embarrassing tbh

Before setting up the tour then GN should have confirmed the process with the OWGR and informed the players what would be happening

Every single player joined LIV knowing that none of the events would carry ranking points.

It all seems very “Amatuerish” in regards it’s organisation

It’s the same with the players banned from PGAT - again the players should have understood the consequences

Is Greg Norman telling them lies ?

Other tours have to follow the process , the new tours that applied for points had to follow the same process - it’s there written down

Follow it and the events get ranking points - it can’t be any simpler

Agree with a fair bit of that. Couple of thoughts - if it is such an "open & shut case", why not write back in a few days saying so? Maybe take a few more days and outline things to focus on.
I've seen the owgr items referred to as "guidelines" and as "rules". Not sure which is accurate.
There is a bit of a sense that the owgr may be a bit like the committee member who allowed some dates to slip in a few knockout ties, once compromises are made then door opens for more, & bigger, asks.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just to give a personal view, I watched and considered posting on the Professional Golf thread about 3 or 4 things, however I felt there has been an undercurrent of animosity building, and took the decision not to bother. Obviously I may wrong, it's just how I felt.
Know there are a few firmly at each end of the extremes of the tribalism. Suspect many more are closer to the centre but are less noisy. I try to respect the various opinions, probably agree with many of them. Personally I have no interest in becoming too involved in the extremes and will continue to watch various tours in various locations as I chose.

Fear this thread & topic is going the way of politics discussions which is a shame.

when everything is stripped back it’s still just golf and the players playing are going to play some great golf shots and rounds that IMO should be highlighted in the 2022 thread

I haven’t seen much of the shots beyond what’s shared on social media but then that’s the same with PGAT comps - beyond the big ones watching in the evening just doesn’t work

But I love seeing stunning golf shots and there are playing on LIV that will produce them - like the eagle from DJ the other week , that’s are great as Willets shot around the tree or Bob Macs great final round

Agree with a fair bit of that. Couple of thoughts - if it is such an "open & shut case", why not write back in a few days saying so? Maybe take a few more days and outline things to focus on.
I've seen the owgr items referred to as "guidelines" and as "rules". Not sure which is accurate.
There is a bit of a sense that the owgr may be a bit like the committee member who allowed some dates to slip in a few knockout ties, once compromises are made then door opens for more, & bigger, asks.

I think once they have the year out of the way then it’s going to be addressed and believe LIV should have known the timeline but we are only hearing LIV side etc - I doubt the OWGR have ever had to address things publicly because all the other tours work within the guidelines

Hence why I think a lot of the issues lay at the arrogance of Greg Norman- he is one of the biggest issues , there is no doubt he imo has made loads of promises to players that he didn’t confirm before hand.

 

[BubbaP]

when everything is stripped back it’s still just golf and the players playing are going to play some great golf shots and rounds that IMO should be highlighted in the 2022 thread

I haven’t seen much of the shots beyond what’s shared on social media but then that’s the same with PGAT comps - beyond the big ones watching in the evening just doesn’t work

But I love seeing stunning golf shots and there are playing on LIV that will produce them - like the eagle from DJ the other week , that’s are great as Willets shot around the tree or Bob Macs great final round



I think once they have the year out of the way then it’s going to be addressed and believe LIV should have known the timeline but we are only hearing LIV side etc - I doubt the OWGR have ever had to address things publicly because all the other tours work within the guidelines

Hence why I think a lot of the issues lay at the arrogance of Greg Norman- he is one of the biggest issues , there is no doubt he imo has made loads of promises to players that he didn’t confirm before hand.

? did this one pop up?
Phil (M) being Phil
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-cart-path-shot-liv-golf-video
Both "villans" Reed & Garcia played very well on last day.
Cam had a number of recoveries, which probably aren't a surprise any more. Plus his attitude on last putt, not taking two because he could.

GN & team were always going to try to use media, player & fans to push the agenda - it isn't pretty I agree. Just think the OWGR have left themselves open unnecessarily when it was in their gift to not do so.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

? did this one pop up?
Phil (M) being Phil
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-cart-path-shot-liv-golf-video
Both "villans" Reed & Garcia played very well on last day.
Cam had a number of recoveries, which probably aren't a surprise any more. Plus his attitude on last putt, not taking two because he could.

GN & team were always going to try to use media, player & fans to push the agenda - it isn't pretty I agree. Just think the OWGR have left themselves open unnecessarily when it was in their gift to not do so.

Yep saw that shot - that’s the standard Mickleson that always looked at a way to get the shot , sweet connection

The funniest video though was BDC and the rope ? the memes from that are as funny as the reaction from him

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...LG89R9fWTLwDpHBfSZFjX11wul&id=193706507316495

there was also the Garcia airmailing the green at the same time as the commentator was highlighting his distance control

Some stunning shots from Smith as well , there was a couple of recovery shots to inches

When it comes to the ranking points - back in June when it all kicked off and the players left they all knew there would be no points - it’s why players were looking to play Asian events and also DP events - the players knew that when they signed up , it’s just another Greg Norman tactic of trying to bully the organisation’s into giving them what they want when they can’t buy it. The issue also is the tours that LIV are taking the players from are also sitting on that ranking committee

A lot of the issues come down to how it’s all kicked off -

From players looking to “poach” others during PGA events
the attacks in the media on CEO of both tours
the overbearing LIV social media accounts that are just looking to widen the divide

There are so many different ways it could have all been done - there could have been a tour for those top players to play in , an extension of the WGC’s being played around the world with local invites etc but it was never going to happen the minute GN was involved

 

[Mel Smooth]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572298429023551489

 

[Backsticks]

And still the haters hate.

??

Thats a lazy and childish reponse, repeated yet again.

There is no hate for LIV here. Only a rational, well spelled out, list of reasons why LIV has degraded, and brought no enhancement whatsoever, to the sport of elite professional golf competition, for those who follow, and are entertained by it.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Thats a lazy and childish reponse, repeated yet again.

There is no hate for LIV here. Only a rational, well spelled out, list of reasons why LIV has degraded, and brought no enhancement whatsoever, to the sport of elite professional golf competition, for those who follow, and are entertained by it.

You do understand that's just an opinion right, and other people will disagree with it?

 

[Backsticks]

You do understand that's just an opinion right, and other people will disagree with it?

No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level golf entertainment have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Just read Alan' Shipnucks latest article.

Quote
"Something has to happen quickly or the World Ranking will become a farce. Hopefully when this gets sorted out—and it has to get sorted out—the points will be backdated to LIV London so we can again have a unified ranking with actual meaning."

https://firepitcollective.com/return-of-askalan/

 

[Mel Smooth]

No. Its a fact, that the reasons LIV has harmed top level golf entertainment have been spelled out here.
Chief among them, the splitting of top players into two tours. That isnt an opinion. Without LIV, BdC, Smith, Reed, DJ Koepka would still be playing on the PGAT. There is no opinion in that. Its how it would have been. While the PgAT has retained the majority of the crown jewels, the loss of those handful of still top golfers has degraded the level of competition.

You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.

He just followed the rules of the tour for which he works.
It isn’t Monaghan, it’s the tour.

 

[Backsticks]

You see, you're wrong again. The reason those players aren't playing on the PGA Tour is because the commisioner banned them, I've said it so many times on here I'm bored of telling you, but that's the FACT.

Apparently Monaghan is trying to protect his tour, but you've just stated it's worse for his decision. That's on him, not LIV.

And to prove the point, the DP World Tour have had to let some of those LIV players compete, and just had one of the most interesting and observed events at Wentworth in a long, long time.

It's staring you in the face what the way forward is, but you will not see it.

I am sorry Sir, but it is you who are wrong on this point. The prime mover in the sequence of events was LIV signing these golfers. No signings to a new tour, no splitting of the worlds top golfers.

Your argument is like a handbag snatcher accusing the handbag owner of being responsible for, and initiating a fight, when they refuse to yield the handbag. You are supporting such a preposterous argument as the snatcher claiming - I didnt start any fight, but they did when they didnt hand over the handbag and physically resisted.
So no. LIV started this chain of events, and cannot blame others for it not going their way, and turning messy.