LIV Golf

[evemccc]

The fact is pressure is pressure and it effects people differently. That is the fact. What one person sees as pressure can be a bread and butter situation to someone else.

I have to agree with this. When it comes to golf, IMO pressure is all internal - the more someone wants / or are afraid of not winning or getting that thing, it seems the more likely they are not to perform at their best

But, I do believe some people are better at dealing with that than others

 

[Swango1980]

I have to agree with this. When it comes to golf, IMO pressure is all internal - the more someone wants / or are afraid of not winning or getting that thing, something the more likely they are not not perform at their best

But, I do believe some people are better at dealing with that than others

Indeed, pressure is completely internal, but is caused by external factors. Some people are brilliant at dealing with it (I.e. Tiger Woods), others not.

But, it is the external factors that contribute to that statement of how much a player wants something, or afraid to lose. There is easy to understand why, for example, McIlroy would feel more pressure at The Masters even more than the other majors, or Mickleson at the US Open, given their history.

 

[evemccc]

the Sportswashing elememt (which seems to be ignored in so many other sports because it is not challenging the current elite body) I have an equally poor view of the PGA Tour, DP Tour (which could not look more like the PGA tour's puppy if it tried) and LIV.

This is a great point and summarises my position on LIV / the PGA Tour…To it I would add ‘sportswashing in other territories’ is ignored. But it’s precisely the fact that the elite body (and essentially corporate America) and those that have aligned themselves to that i.e. Sky, that is challenged, that all manner of pushback has occurred

The only way I am pro-LIV is that it is free-to-air (for now) and ad-free - if the cricket analogy is taken then I am wholly against the Hundred in particular, and even T20 isn’t my thing….therefore the ‘louder golf’ of LIV clearly isn’t desirable. A lot of it looks pretty naff —- but, I don’t doubt it will improve in time

That being said I don’t care about watching golf and the culture of pro golf in the way I care about watching cricket, so I feel I care less about it’s ‘heritage’. And the PGA Tour isn’t a great ‘product’ and some innovations with LIV - like a shotgun start and team element could have been good - esp if it including mixed gender teams

For me as a bit of a contrarian, it’s the obvious hypocrisy and lack of context in appeals to morality in the arguments that the PGA Tour have used, which is used to masquerade self-preservation, of the PGA Tour and its defenders such as NLU and Sky pretty annoying — annoying esp as Sky essentially helped promote two boxing fights in Saudi Arabia

As a potential usurper Vs an established ruling body, I find the power struggle of LIV Vs PGA Tour very interesting — but in all my time in golf clubhouses, I have never once heard anyone discuss what happened in the weekend’s PGA Tour event, or LIV for that matter…the Open / Masters are the only times I’ve heard pro golf discussed

 

[Mel Smooth]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572263021107630080

 

[Backsticks]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572263021107630080

The LIV jumpers seem to have made a lot of silly or poorly informed decisions all right. How much of it is known unknowns being discovered as they go, or whether they had assurances from Saudis/Greg that they didnt then back up, we just dont know.

 

[evemccc]

Re: OWGR and LIV

Two tweets from Alan Shipnuck:

“LIV Golf needs World Ranking points. The OWGR needs LIV players to avoid irrelevancy. This doesn't seem that hard: LIV should go to 72 hole events with a cut (paying the players who M/C whatever it wants) and add a Monday Qualifier, which would be fun theater. Voilá!”

“For LIV, the added benefit is that this would undercut much of the critique that it isn’t real competition. The shotgun starts can stay or go, I don’t really care.”

 

[Mel Smooth]

The LIV jumpers seem to have made a lot of silly or poorly informed decisions all right. How much of it is known unknowns being discovered as they go, or whether they had assurances from Saudis/Greg that they didnt then back up, we just dont know.

I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.

 

[Swango1980]

I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.

How would you expect the PGA Tour to react? Send them their blessing, considering any player joining LIV would clearly play in less PGA events, and weaken the PGA. If the PGA were happy to work with LIV, there would be no issues with Milroy, Thomas, Scheffler, etc from joining LIV, knowing the PGA Tour have no problems with it.

Fair enough for people like you, you'd have a LIV tour with all the current best players in the world. And you get to watch it for free. Meanwhile, the PGA is severely downgraded, loses sponsors and broadcasters, and LIV becomes the major golf tour in a few years time (at which point broadcasters sign deals and it is no longer free to watch). However, even if it was true it had the best players in the world at this point of time, how true would that be in 1 year time, 5 years time, etc. With no proper qualification, you would no doubt have big name players who are past their sell by date still competing on LIV, whilst you have excellent young golfers coming through that struggle to get a chance.

Of course the PGA Tour is going to protect its brand. It will continue to try and provide a self sustaining golf tour for the elite golfers in this world, while LIV just tries to throw masses more money at it, money not earned through the golf.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think it just highlights (again) the rampant desperation from the PGA tour to discredit LIV and the players that have gone over.

The Presidents Cup is run by the PGAT

Any player who played in LIV events or moved to their tour is currently banned from playing in PGAT Events - why is there still a shock or a surprise for this ?

Nothing has changed in the last couple of months , the players tried to go to court to play in the events and it was turned away

Why would they suddenly allow the players to play now ?

Every single player knew there would be consequences when they left to go to LIV - if they were told anything different then they were lied too.

 

[AussieKB]

It is long overdue to end this thread.

 

[r0wly86]

It is long overdue to end this thread.

feel free to not read or post in it then

 

[Deleted member 1147]

The Presidents Cup is run by the PGAT

Any player who played in LIV events or moved to their tour is currently banned from playing in PGAT Events - why is there still a shock or a surprise for this ?

Nothing has changed in the last couple of months , the players tried to go to court to play in the events and it was turned away

Why would they suddenly allow the players to play now ?

Every single player knew there would be consequences when they left to go to LIV - if they were told anything different then they were lied too.

Can non-PGA tour members (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?

 

[ColchesterFC]

Re: OWGR and LIV

Two tweets from Alan Shipnuck:

“LIV Golf needs World Ranking points. The OWGR needs LIV players to avoid irrelevancy. This doesn't seem that hard: LIV should go to 72 hole events with a cut (paying the players who M/C whatever it wants) and add a Monday Qualifier, which would be fun theater. Voilá!”

“For LIV, the added benefit is that this would undercut much of the critique that it isn’t real competition. The shotgun starts can stay or go, I don’t really care.”

Isn't there also an issue with size of the field having to be 75+ on average over the year? That would make a shotgun start impossible.

The rules for awarding OWGR points are very clear and LIV chose not to follow them. They currently don't qualify for several reasons but are stamping their feet and screaming about how unfair it is. The simple solution is for LIV to adapt their tour to meet the criteria for getting OWGR points and then they'd have a valid argument.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Can non-PGA tour members (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?

Yes the International team can be picked from any tour

Well any Tour that currently doesn’t have players banned by the PGAT

It is long overdue to end this thread.

Why ? Has LIV stopped ?

 

[Slab]

Can non-PGA tour members (ie someone on the Euro Tour, but not PGA) not play in the Pres' Cup?

Yeah they can if its for the International team
i.e if Louis Oosthuizen had resigned from pgat before hitting a ball for liv instead of after, he could've still been picked for the Int team (thats what I read anyway)

 

[Slab]

Isn't there also an issue with size of the field having to be 75+ on average over the year? That would make a shotgun start impossible.

The rules for awarding OWGR points are very clear and LIV chose not to follow them. They currently don't qualify for several reasons but are stamping their feet and screaming about how unfair it is. The simple solution is for LIV to adapt their tour to meet the criteria for getting OWGR points and then they'd have a valid argument.

After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'

 

[Depreston]

After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'

isn't there 7 steps to get the rankings?

2 biggies being a Q-school and Monday qualifiers?

 

[ColchesterFC]

After reading news articles online I thought it was pretty clear cut too and LIV had little chance of getting points especially with emphasis on things like 72 hole events etc, then I read that of the 23 tours where owgr can be/are awarded there's already tours with 54 hole events getting points, so I'm not as certain as I used to be that I understand the criteria given the existing 'exceptions'

My understanding is that development or feeder tours are allowed to be 54 holes but all of the main tours are 72 holes. And in both instances with a cut.

 

[Backsticks]

So the rules writers of the time were running 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments. And wrote the rules to cater for....... 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments.
So get on with it, and change the rules owgr.

As far as points go for Saudi tour events, they are going to be very few anyway. The poor average level if players, and 40% of the entrants in a standard tournament, will still have Saudi players struggle to avoid slipping down the rankings.

 

[BubbaP]

So the rules writers of the time were running 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments. And wrote the rules to cater for....... 72-hole, with-cut, tournaments.
So get on with it, and change the rules owgr.

As far as points go for Saudi tour events, they are going to be very few anyway. The poor average level if players, and 40% of the entrants in a standard tournament, will still have Saudi players struggle to avoid slipping down the rankings.

The main current debate is around principles & politics, but putting those aside for a mo' I agree it is a pretty straightforward maths problem.

The OWGR already has rules in place for field strength calculations. It probably already caters for smaller field sizes as have those on PGAT. The owgr already cover 54 holes tournaments. They could add an extra reduction metric (i.e. 0.75 factor) with liv not being a "developmental tour". They already cover non cut tournaments, as have those on PGAT. That is one area I'd suggest changing though. Currently they give points to all players, I'd suggest some formula so say only the top half, or top 3rd would receive points. This would assist the competition argument. Especially with more no cut events coming on PGAT in future.
Points on offer would definitely be lower than the premium PGAT tournaments, perhaps closer to regular DPWT ones but hard to be sure. No doubt the actual points would become the next debate point should it ever happen!

It looks pretty obvious the "75% of tour" rule was added later at the behest of the PGAT so they could be more flexible. So that would potentially need changing. Assume the "Monday qualifying" one is also tied with that as it doesn't apply everywhere today.
Not really expecting anything to happen in a hurry though.