LIV Golf

[BubbaP]

Think the mix of the team format and singles didn’t help with one player admitting that he played a little bit differently with a team score in mind

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I think they may get some level of points if they do have a proper “qualifying”

But the level of points will be insignificant

It's about opinions, but that read so much like we've made a call, and looking to find some justification.
Any idea what the % hole out rates are from 40 feet?
Just a foolish comment when a mic is shoved in front of him IMO.

Agree if it happened the points level will be low.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It's about opinions, but that read so much like we've made a call, and looking to find some justification.
Any idea what the % hole out rates are from 40 feet?
Just a foolish comment when a mic is shoved in front of him IMO.

Agree if it happened the points level will be low.

It’s always going to be a tough sell when you have two formats playing together

If they binned off a team prize for each event that would prob help

But it’s still very much a closed shop

 

[BubbaP]

I mean the closed shop argument is valid. On other tours if you play well in the right feeder tour (and so on down the pathway) then you get in. The end. Until LIV has some mechanism where you can force your way in then it’s really just an exhibition tour of 54 random golfers they have chosen to employ rather than the best. As that means that it is possible that much of the field could be teeing up having been selected due to their marketability or their modest wage demands rather than their golf performance, then it is very hard to argue that it should be allowed to dish out large numbers of world ranking points when the whole point of these, by definition, is that they should be meritocratic.

I think it's fine to criticise the specifics of the two routes for 'forcing your way in', in your words.
But to ignore them seems odd IMO.

As per above, if it did happen the points wouldn't be large - field isn't massive, and many rankings have fallen so far.

 

[Mel Smooth]

I’d imagine that LIV know what they are required to do to achieve OWGR status, and know that should they meet the criteria, the application is going to be successful.
These changes will be quite straightforward - nothing that is going to radically change the format of the league.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I’d imagine that LIV know what they are required to do to achieve OWGR status, and know that should they meet the criteria, the application is going to be successful.
These changes will be quite straightforward - nothing that is going to radically change the format of the league.

Didn’t they know what to do last time as well and that the application was supposed to be succesful etc etc

What are these straightforward changes and if they are so straightforward why wait so long since the last request was denied ?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Didn’t they know what to do last time as well and that the application was supposed to be succesful etc etc

What are these straightforward changes and if they are so straightforward why wait so long since the last request was denied ?

The timing has probably got more to do with the people involved than anything - and of course the financiers that back golf - money is influential whether we like it or not.

From Scott O’Neils statement it’s clear that they hope to get a decision which would allow players to earn points towards major qualification in 2026, and the concerns over the last application were mainly around qualification for LIV and meritocracy, so those will be addressed. LIV have made itv clear this season that if you finish in the relegation zone, you’re out, I’d imagine they will be considering opening up more qualification routes/places as well. Who knows, OWGR ranking might form part of that.

 

[AussieKB]

Hope OWGR don't give LIV any recondition....it will just make there stats more obsolete......

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The timing has probably got more to do with the people involved than anything - and of course the financiers that back golf - money is influential whether we like it or not.

From Scott O’Neils statement it’s clear that they hope to get a decision which would allow players to earn points towards major qualification in 2026, and the concerns over the last application were mainly around qualification for LIV and meritocracy, so those will be addressed. LIV have made itv clear this season that if you finish in the relegation zone, you’re out, I’d imagine they will be considering opening up more qualification routes/places as well. Who knows, OWGR ranking might form part of that.

There are going to be three main issues

Relegation- no one should be protected , no captain should have the ability to bring back someone etc

Promotion- needs to be more than just 2 spots - got to open it up to more within a qualifying tournament- maybe 8 ?

So 8 leave the tour to be replaced by 8 from a qualifying tournament


Also have a few spots for a Monday qualifier


And then the team and singles format mixed together - it’s bit of a mess



The issue for Liv is the qualifying opens up the high chance that “names” get relegated and replaced by “unknowns” - could lose major winners to be replaced by players that little impact

And then there is the level of points they gain - it’s going to be the bare minimum

LIV are actually getting some level of exemptions into majors so I’m not sure why they now want to apply for ranking points when it could have a negative affect

 

[Fore Right]

The main reasons this application stands a better chance of success (though it’s by no means guaranteed)


No Greg Norman – His absence removes a major point of contention and reduces the politics surrounding LIV’s previous applications.
New OWGR Chair – A change in leadership could bring a more open-minded or pragmatic approach to LIV’s inclusion.
Scott O'Neil's Dialogue with Trevor Immelman – O'Neil has reportedly had extensive discussions with Immelman, suggesting LIV has been well briefed on what’s required for a successful application.
LIV Players Performing in Majors – The consistent presence and performance of LIV players in major championships reinforces their legitimacy and strengthens the argument for a ranking pathway.
Shift in Perception – LIV Golf is now more widely accepted as part of the professional golf ecosystem. Early on, it was seen as a disruptor unlikely to survive, and withholding OWGR points was seen as a way to accelerate its downfall.
The OWGR’s own relevance has been questioned, especially with top-tier players like Jon Rahm and Bryson DeChambeau languishing in the rankings. Increasingly, media outlets and analysts are referencing Data Golf now instead of OWGR.

 

[BubbaP]

There are going to be three main issues

Relegation- no one should be protected , no captain should have the ability to bring back someone etc

Promotion- needs to be more than just 2 spots - got to open it up to more within a qualifying tournament- maybe 8 ?

So 8 leave the tour to be replaced by 8 from a qualifying tournament


Also have a few spots for a Monday qualifier


And then the team and singles format mixed together - it’s bit of a mess



The issue for Liv is the qualifying opens up the high chance that “names” get relegated and replaced by “unknowns” - could lose major winners to be replaced by players that little impact

And then there is the level of points they gain - it’s going to be the bare minimum

LIV are actually getting some level of exemptions into majors so I’m not sure why they now want to apply for ranking points when it could have a negative affect

How long have you been working at the owgr Phil to know all these facts?

It was regularly said on here that the main role of owgr was to assist with major qualifications. The fact the majors began implementing other routes was surely a bad optic for owgr.

Along with the media more readily referring to other ranking systems who focused on the job of ranking, rather than control.

Agree with the potential issue you mention, but that is needed for credibility IMO.

You may forget that 2023/2024, 4 came through qualification. The numbers were dropped after the owgr application was denied, then withdrawn.

Should somehow the application be accepted it may the exceptions remain, who knows.

A low level of points might enable some to maintain a position rather than keep falling. Might encourage the few who haven't played as much elsewhere to step that up a bit build some points again.

All speculation of course.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

How long have you been working at the owgr Phil to know all these facts?

It was regularly said on here that the main role of owgr was to assist with major qualifications. The fact the majors began implementing other routes was surely a bad optic for owgr.

Along with the media more readily referring to other ranking systems who focused on the job of ranking, rather than control.

Agree with the potential issue you mention, but that is needed for credibility IMO.

You may forget that 2023/2024, 4 came through qualification. The numbers were dropped after the owgr application was denied, then withdrawn.

Should somehow the application be accepted it may the exceptions remain, who knows.

A low level of points might enable some to maintain a position rather than keep falling. Might encourage the few who haven't played as much elsewhere to step that up a bit build some points again.

All speculation of course.

Don’t believe I said they were “facts” - they are as much a “fact” as the statements that changes will be made

Since they were rejected last time LIV have made no changes to make any application different - they have actually made it more of a closed shop with players relegated being invited back in by captains because those players were “names”

Not sure what media outside any LIV based or biased media refers to other ranking systems ? Not sure why the mainstream media would need to bother about ranking systems that are at the end of the day irrelevant to majors or major tours

But as we all know it’s not just down to one person in regards any application for ranking points - there are a number of other tours involved ( tours that have been affected by the introduction of LIV )

LIV will reach some very crucial points imo - a number coming to the end of their contracts , what will happen to those , how can a player on a contract to play be relegated for example ?

Where are the next batch of top players for the tour coming from

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The main reasons this application stands a better chance of success (though it’s by no means guaranteed)


No Greg Norman – His absence removes a major point of contention and reduces the politics surrounding LIV’s previous applications.
New OWGR Chair – A change in leadership could bring a more open-minded or pragmatic approach to LIV’s inclusion.

Multiple people on owgr made the choice to not award points and none of it was to do with Greg Norman or previous chair - it’s not a single vote , it’s multiple people

Scott O'Neil's Dialogue with Trevor Immelman – O'Neil has reportedly had extensive discussions with Immelman, suggesting LIV has been well briefed on what’s required for a successful application.

Again Immelman is one person - it’s not his choice alone

LIV Players Performing in Majors – The consistent presence and performance of LIV players in major championships reinforces their legitimacy and strengthens the argument for a ranking pathway.

LIV performance in majors hasn’t been great - the number one player on LIV has performed poorly in majors ,

Shift in Perception – LIV Golf is now more widely accepted as part of the professional golf ecosystem. Early on, it was seen as a disruptor unlikely to survive, and withholding OWGR points was seen as a way to accelerate its downfall.
The OWGR’s own relevance has been questioned, especially with top-tier players like Jon Rahm and Bryson DeChambeau languishing in the rankings. Increasingly, media outlets and analysts are referencing Data Golf now instead of OWGR.

“Widely accepted” - not so sure , more than likely imo that most outside LIV fans just ignore it and don’t even know it’s going on . Events pass by without very little talk on it

And Data golf is not used by any major or competition and no main steam media outlet or LIV account uses it

 

[BubbaP]

Don’t believe I said they were “facts” - they are as much a “fact” as the statements that changes will be made

Just your trademark, delightful posting style then
Do share where I stated 'changes will be made'

Not sure what media outside any LIV based or biased media refers to other ranking systems ? Not sure why the mainstream media would need to bother about ranking systems that are at the end of the day irrelevant to majors or major tours

Have you previously stated which golf media you consider biased?

Jon Rahm Just Dropped Out Of The World's Top 50... Here's Where He Sits In Golf's Other Ranking Systems

Rahm had been in the world's top 50 since early 2017 and ranked No.1 this time two years ago

www.golfmonthly.com

How Does TUGR Calculate Golf Rankings? OWGR’s “Unbiased” Alternative’s Features Explored

How does TUGR differ from OWGR? The CEO of the fledgling ranking system explains the unbiased, all-inclusive alternative.

www.essentiallysports.com

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Just your trademark, delightful posting style then
Do share where I stated 'changes will be made'

I didn’t say you stated changes will be made others have

Have you previously stated which golf media you consider biased?

Jon Rahm Just Dropped Out Of The World's Top 50... Here's Where He Sits In Golf's Other Ranking Systems

Rahm had been in the world's top 50 since early 2017 and ranked No.1 this time two years ago

www.golfmonthly.com

How Does TUGR Calculate Golf Rankings? OWGR’s “Unbiased” Alternative’s Features Explored

How does TUGR differ from OWGR? The CEO of the fledgling ranking system explains the unbiased, all-inclusive alternative.

www.essentiallysports.com

Who is essentially sports

And various GM writers have been very much Pro LIV hence the multiples articles from those writers highlighting a “LIV Leaderboard” in a Major

https://twitter.com/x/status/1944155012877496500

Interesting that this writers also highlights some of what I was talking about

 

[BubbaP]

I didn’t say you stated changes will be made others have

Then, again, I request you leave me out of whatever it is you have going on with them.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Then, again, I request you leave me out of whatever it is you have going on with them.

You responded to my post which was part of the conversation

 

[Mel Smooth]

The person saying changes are being made is the person running LIV.

Clearly the relationships now are far more amicable.




LIV is established, it’s not going anywhere - the PGAT want some of the LIV players for some events and LIV will want some PGAT players for some LIV events. Financial interest is growing in the league, investors will start to realise the potential of a global golf tour - they will lean on those running the game to develop those investment opportunities, and having the OWGR operate correctly to rank all golfers is key to that.

Jon Rahm relying on a captains pick to get in the Ryder Cup team demonstrates how ludicrous the situation is.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The person saying changes are being made is the person running LIV.

Clearly the relationships now are far more amicable.


View attachment 58745

LIV is established, it’s not going anywhere - the PGAT want some of the LIV players for some events and LIV will want some PGAT players for some LIV events. Financial interest is growing in the league, investors will start to realise the potential of a global golf tour - they will lean on those running the game to develop those investment opportunities, and having the OWGR operate correctly to rank all golfers is key to that.

Jon Rahm relying on a captains pick to get in the Ryder Cup team demonstrates how ludicrous the situation is.

The last part

The Ryder Cup is a competition that’s administered by the US and European Tours - a player not playing on either of those tours with any regularity is always going to struggle to qualify , it’s why Europeans playing on the Asia Tour or Sunshine tour wont qualify without any captains pick

If Rahm or anyone is not playing in events that have Ryder Cup points how can he qualify ? And they aren’t going to be giving LIV events Ryder Cup points

You are right LIV is established , it’s an active tour , where it is in the landscape of golf will be debatable

And any tour will want to see the best players playing on it

As for the financial investments- it’s all still heavily reliant on sovereign investment to stand it up - without sovereign wealth the tour collapses

Who are these that will “lean” on those who run golf ? And is that the R&A or USGA or PGAT or ET they will lean on - what is it you think that they will do ?

A “global tour” still has the biggest area of market in the same hotspots that have always been there , new markets aren’t opening up

 

[Fore Right]

If the OWGR wants to be taken seriously as an accurate point of reference for the best players in the world then they need to include the players from the 2nd strongest tour in the world.

If the 2nd strongest tour in the world wants OWGR points then it needs to do whats needed to achieve that.

 

[Imurg]

And you can't have one without the other....