Mel Smooth
Hacker
It doesn’t, hence the reason I said some implications.
LIV Golf
- Thread starter MarkT
- Start date
It doesn’t, hence the reason I said some implications.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
4 players getting £4mil each for 18 holes on a course that’s $1500 a round
Everything that’s wrong with the sport - bankrolled by no doubt the Saudi money
Just dripping of trying to buy it all
The “match” was bad and cringey enough - this will be no better. Can just imagine the faux banter now
Everything that’s wrong with the sport - bankrolled by no doubt the Saudi money
Just dripping of trying to buy it all
The “match” was bad and cringey enough - this will be no better. Can just imagine the faux banter now
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
A few players getting $4m they don't really need
doublebogey7
Head Pro
I don't see any legal implications for the PGAT members in playing this event, whoever is promoting it. Maybe you could enlighten me.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
It’s no different to them playing in some pro am for McManus etc in the past - it’s not a tour event
There have been a few of these in recent years. So called challenges for whopping money. Awful things, thankfully easy to avoid.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
The Showdown: Date And Course Set For Las Vegas TV Match Featuring McIlroy, Scheffler, DeChambeau And Koepka
More details on the venue and date for the made-for-TV contest featuring Rory McIlroy, Scottie Scheffler, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka have been released
www.golfmonthly.com
“Further details emerged on Thursday when Dan Rapaport reported he had heard each player was guaranteed $4 million in appearance money - the same number victorious LIV golfers earn per event.”
Mel Smooth
Hacker
PGAT players can play on a non conflicting date - and there aren’t many with the wrap around calendar, riight?
I’d think a half decent lawyer would use that as evidence in a monopoly argument at least.
Also, this is not really a legal point, but having two PGAT players, the two most famous outside of Tiger, on a LIV branded and produced piece of media, represents a significant step change in mens pro golf doesn’t it?
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BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
Did wonder if Shaufflee was a tad gutted not to be asked (if that's the case)
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
Not sure it will matter too much when the audience of that Liv branded account is that small the reach is very insignificant
Mel Smooth
Hacker
The Showdown: Date And Course Set For Las Vegas TV Match Featuring McIlroy, Scheffler, DeChambeau And Koepka
More details on the venue and date for the made-for-TV contest featuring Rory McIlroy, Scottie Scheffler, Bryson DeChambeau and Brooks Koepka have been released
“Further details emerged on Thursday when Dan Rapaport reported he had heard each player was guaranteed $4 million in appearance money - the same number victorious LIV golfers earn per event.”
Rapaport took down that information I believe as it was wrong.
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
Rory really is full of 
.
.
Crow
Crow Person
BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
Fully understand with your social media presenceIf Shaufflee wasn't, I flipping well was.
Can feel a petition coming on...
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Of course, and you may or may not be right on the legalities of that, but what the hell has it got to do with this exhibition match.
Fore Right
Well-known member
All the breadcrumbs seem to be pointing to Hidalgo going to Legion 13 for 2025 ?
Mel Smooth
Hacker
Mel Smooth
Hacker
And an interesting tweet from Andrew Kirby here explaining how the financials are evolving in different countries.
In this hiatus period for #LIVGolf there's lots of speculation. Will LIV still exist in years to come, will it make $, how does it make $ and will the PIF keep funding it?
First, whether by design or not through this "golf war" LIV has a brand now recognised around the world - better known than other golf tours for casual and new golf fans. Like it or not it's known and that's big.
Brands can be monetised.
The LIV holding entity operates like the F1 model. I'll use Australia because I know more about the numbers.
LIV costs its tournaments at about $50m to run for everything, including the broadcast and infrastructure.
With Sth Australian government funding of $30m currently, plus ticketing, F & B, merch, sponsors it is already at breakeven or in profit.
Before the 4 year deal comes up for renewal in 2 years either Adelaide or another Australian city will bid and pay over $50m for the tourism benefits of the event.
So in a few years LIV Australia will be a $100m event and that's pre broadcast $ (see below).
Do a multiple on $50m profit and the capital value is $500m +.
Hong Kong, Singapore, and Spain all have gov funding. England is underwritten by JCB.
The US events I know don't get gov funding and will rely on corporate funding etc.
Some events will be worth more than others.
Merchandise - Adelaide alone did $3.5m on site. Add the other events and online sales and it's a business with tens of millions in revenue. Use a multiple on its profit and it's already worth hundreds of millions.
Sponsors are building, but the uncertainty to date about LIV's future is likely to have held some back.
Broadcasts/streaming - this is much talked about in the US where the PGAT partners/main sports broadcasters have blocked LIV. Overseas LIV has a lot of broadcast partners like Ch 7 and 7+ in Australia - a major free to air network. See the LIV website for other broadcasters.
The LIV + app is great and ad free and the big question is whether they go with streaming rather than traditional broadcast deals. The PGAT broadcast deals hinder a lot of development and are loaded with ads - it also affects streaming $.
The teams/franchises - LIV owns the majority of the teams and the captains have equity. People say - if they are so good why has no-one bought in to a franchise?
With the uncertainty on LIV's future, investors will be waiting for the future or the PGAT deal.
From LIV's/PIF's side, they are not desperate for $ so why sell down at a low $ figure. Once they sell some equity at a low price it sets the figure.
How do the teams generate income to value them - half the team prizemoney, merch, sponsors etc. They may also set up their own courses/venues and could make $ through these ventures.
LIV Japan is coming in 2025 - if a company like Srixon gets on board a Japanese team as sponsor/owner the upside is clear. Just an example.
Based on this, I don't see LIV disappearing -the PIF have invested capital as part of a long term plan. Many companies from miners to disruptors to new market entrants spend billions getting a foothold, a brand, infrastructure before they get returns - the return can be both capital increases, equity sell downs and income.
LIV will evolve and some sort of deal may be done with the PGAT but the brand LIV will remain IMO.
In this hiatus period for #LIVGolf there's lots of speculation. Will LIV still exist in years to come, will it make $, how does it make $ and will the PIF keep funding it?
First, whether by design or not through this "golf war" LIV has a brand now recognised around the world - better known than other golf tours for casual and new golf fans. Like it or not it's known and that's big.
Brands can be monetised.
The LIV holding entity operates like the F1 model. I'll use Australia because I know more about the numbers.
LIV costs its tournaments at about $50m to run for everything, including the broadcast and infrastructure.
With Sth Australian government funding of $30m currently, plus ticketing, F & B, merch, sponsors it is already at breakeven or in profit.
Before the 4 year deal comes up for renewal in 2 years either Adelaide or another Australian city will bid and pay over $50m for the tourism benefits of the event.
So in a few years LIV Australia will be a $100m event and that's pre broadcast $ (see below).
Do a multiple on $50m profit and the capital value is $500m +.
Hong Kong, Singapore, and Spain all have gov funding. England is underwritten by JCB.
The US events I know don't get gov funding and will rely on corporate funding etc.
Some events will be worth more than others.
Merchandise - Adelaide alone did $3.5m on site. Add the other events and online sales and it's a business with tens of millions in revenue. Use a multiple on its profit and it's already worth hundreds of millions.
Sponsors are building, but the uncertainty to date about LIV's future is likely to have held some back.
Broadcasts/streaming - this is much talked about in the US where the PGAT partners/main sports broadcasters have blocked LIV. Overseas LIV has a lot of broadcast partners like Ch 7 and 7+ in Australia - a major free to air network. See the LIV website for other broadcasters.
The LIV + app is great and ad free and the big question is whether they go with streaming rather than traditional broadcast deals. The PGAT broadcast deals hinder a lot of development and are loaded with ads - it also affects streaming $.
The teams/franchises - LIV owns the majority of the teams and the captains have equity. People say - if they are so good why has no-one bought in to a franchise?
With the uncertainty on LIV's future, investors will be waiting for the future or the PGAT deal.
From LIV's/PIF's side, they are not desperate for $ so why sell down at a low $ figure. Once they sell some equity at a low price it sets the figure.
How do the teams generate income to value them - half the team prizemoney, merch, sponsors etc. They may also set up their own courses/venues and could make $ through these ventures.
LIV Japan is coming in 2025 - if a company like Srixon gets on board a Japanese team as sponsor/owner the upside is clear. Just an example.
Based on this, I don't see LIV disappearing -the PIF have invested capital as part of a long term plan. Many companies from miners to disruptors to new market entrants spend billions getting a foothold, a brand, infrastructure before they get returns - the return can be both capital increases, equity sell downs and income.
LIV will evolve and some sort of deal may be done with the PGAT but the brand LIV will remain IMO.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
I was trying to cut and paste this article but my laptop crashed as I was doing so - and I'm now getting a limited view of the piece with the majority of it behind a paywall. Think I've got most of it, but there's definitely a paragraph or two missing at the end. Essentially Van Otterdijk predicts the future of golf to look like I've outlined it before - players moving between tours, with the PGAT, DPWT and LIV all contributing to a global schedule.
Daniel Van Otterdijk, Group Chief Communications Officer at DP World, isn't a fan of penalising golfers for joining LIV Golf but remains optimistic that a deal to resolve the sport’s current divisions will be reached within the next six months.
Despite announcing a framework agreement last June, the PGA Tour, DP World Tour, and the Saudi Public Investment Fund (PIF), backers of the LIV Golf League, have yet to finalise a deal to unify the game.
While talks continue between the three organisations, fans and players are growing increasingly frustrated by the drawn-out negotiations.
Just a few weeks ago, two-time DP World Tour Championship winner Matt Fitzpatrick voiced his frustration, saying, "I think in terms of bringing the game together this week, I'm past the point of caring. I just don't care."
This sentiment is becoming more common, but Van Otterdijk, who confirmed DP World has no direct role in the negotiations, remains confident that an agreement can be reached within the next six months.
“If you take the sort of media nonsense and the perceived politics out of it, if you look at all three bodies, the PGA Tour, which is now very much supported by the Fenway Sports Group, LIV Golf, which is supported by the PIF, and the DP World Tour, which is supported by us, they are all entities that love golf – no doubt about it,” Van Otterdijk told Gulf News at the DP World Tour Play-Offs launch event at Expo City this week.
“His Excellency Yasir Al-Rumayyan (Governor of PIF) is probably one of the biggest golf fans in the world. So, everyone has the right intention. And when you have parties who disagree on the way forward, but everybody has the right intention, inevitably they come together and solve it.
“We’re confident that within the next six months they’ll come up with a structure that befits world golf in a much better way than what we currently have. But, of course, there are legacy issues to sort out.”
Ahead of the Dubai Invitational earlier this year, Rory McIlroy expressed that a World Tour is his "dream scenario," later explaining that the top 80 players globally would compete in a “Champions League” style tour, which would “sit above the rest of the leagues."
Meanwhile, Ryder Cup legend Ian Poulter told Gulf News in February that he’s “sick of listening to people’s rubbish” about a proposed World Tour.
Van Otterdijk, however, envisions the future of golf following a slightly different path, drawing comparisons to cricket’s model, where star players compete in various leagues and franchises worldwide.
“The way that it will go, as far as we can see, if you look at cricket as a model, cricketers these days can play in franchise leagues around the world – the IPL, the Big Bash – whatever it is,” said Van Otterdijk.
“It's kind of like a smorgasbord of cricket they can play in. The top players, like Joe Root, Kane Williamson, or Virat Kohli, will say, ‘Look, I'm in my 30s, I've made X amount of money, I'm now going to play the elite tournaments.’
“They make a schedule based on their fitness and all the rest of it. They're playing those tournaments and making their money. But they’re governed by a variety of different bodies – a very powerful body, the BCCI, the MCC, and then you've got Cricket Australia, Cricket New Zealand, and so on.
“They've all got their own governorships, if you like, and yet they work harmoniously together through the ICC in creating a schedule where there's— I wouldn't say there's none, but there's limited overlap between all the franchise tournaments that get played. Golf will head the same way.
“I can see an end-to-end calendar from January to December, where there's a prominent place for the PGA Tour, a prominent place for LIV Golf, and a prominent place for the DP World Tour, but there will be overlaps.
“A guy like Tommy (Fleetwood) can say, ‘Look, I want to keep my PGA Tour card, I want to play on the DP World Tour, but I'd like to play some LIV Golf events as well.’
“I think LIV Golf will combine their current team structure – that will probably drop, but they'll still have team events.
“All players go through a period where they may struggle, that's inevitable. If you're struggling and you're looking for confidence, there is no better way to find that than by participating in a team event, where your teammates can actually oomph you up a bit and get you going.
“You often see that form gets turned around during the Presidents Cup or the Ryder Cup, where players suddenly find form they didn't even know they had.
“If it's done right, and we think it will be, you could see this fantastic buffet of golf throughout the year in different places around the world, and one or two different formats that we aren’t used to seeing, such as team events.
“All of those events would see the players earn points that would secure them a spot at the season-ending events on the PGA Tour and DP World Tour – that still needs to be worked out.
“But I'm confident that there will be an end-to-end calendar with about 60 tournaments, with players looking to play around 25 in order to gather all the points they need if they play well.
“If they don't play so well, they can add some events throughout the year, and then at the end of the year, you tally up the points and they are where they are.
“I think that will be great for the sport.”
gulfnews.com
Daniel Van Otterdijk, Group Chief Communications Officer at DP World, isn't a fan of penalising golfers for joining LIV Golf but remains optimistic that a deal to resolve the sport’s current divisions will be reached within the next six months.
Despite announcing a framework agreement last June, the PGA Tour, DP World Tour, and the Saudi Public Investment Fund (PIF), backers of the LIV Golf League, have yet to finalise a deal to unify the game.
While talks continue between the three organisations, fans and players are growing increasingly frustrated by the drawn-out negotiations.
Just a few weeks ago, two-time DP World Tour Championship winner Matt Fitzpatrick voiced his frustration, saying, "I think in terms of bringing the game together this week, I'm past the point of caring. I just don't care."
This sentiment is becoming more common, but Van Otterdijk, who confirmed DP World has no direct role in the negotiations, remains confident that an agreement can be reached within the next six months.
“If you take the sort of media nonsense and the perceived politics out of it, if you look at all three bodies, the PGA Tour, which is now very much supported by the Fenway Sports Group, LIV Golf, which is supported by the PIF, and the DP World Tour, which is supported by us, they are all entities that love golf – no doubt about it,” Van Otterdijk told Gulf News at the DP World Tour Play-Offs launch event at Expo City this week.
“His Excellency Yasir Al-Rumayyan (Governor of PIF) is probably one of the biggest golf fans in the world. So, everyone has the right intention. And when you have parties who disagree on the way forward, but everybody has the right intention, inevitably they come together and solve it.
“We’re confident that within the next six months they’ll come up with a structure that befits world golf in a much better way than what we currently have. But, of course, there are legacy issues to sort out.”
Golf to follow cricket model
It remains unclear what any potential agreement might involve, though many players have shared their thoughts on the future of golf.Ahead of the Dubai Invitational earlier this year, Rory McIlroy expressed that a World Tour is his "dream scenario," later explaining that the top 80 players globally would compete in a “Champions League” style tour, which would “sit above the rest of the leagues."
Meanwhile, Ryder Cup legend Ian Poulter told Gulf News in February that he’s “sick of listening to people’s rubbish” about a proposed World Tour.
Van Otterdijk, however, envisions the future of golf following a slightly different path, drawing comparisons to cricket’s model, where star players compete in various leagues and franchises worldwide.
“The way that it will go, as far as we can see, if you look at cricket as a model, cricketers these days can play in franchise leagues around the world – the IPL, the Big Bash – whatever it is,” said Van Otterdijk.
“It's kind of like a smorgasbord of cricket they can play in. The top players, like Joe Root, Kane Williamson, or Virat Kohli, will say, ‘Look, I'm in my 30s, I've made X amount of money, I'm now going to play the elite tournaments.’
“They make a schedule based on their fitness and all the rest of it. They're playing those tournaments and making their money. But they’re governed by a variety of different bodies – a very powerful body, the BCCI, the MCC, and then you've got Cricket Australia, Cricket New Zealand, and so on.
“They've all got their own governorships, if you like, and yet they work harmoniously together through the ICC in creating a schedule where there's— I wouldn't say there's none, but there's limited overlap between all the franchise tournaments that get played. Golf will head the same way.
“I can see an end-to-end calendar from January to December, where there's a prominent place for the PGA Tour, a prominent place for LIV Golf, and a prominent place for the DP World Tour, but there will be overlaps.
“A guy like Tommy (Fleetwood) can say, ‘Look, I want to keep my PGA Tour card, I want to play on the DP World Tour, but I'd like to play some LIV Golf events as well.’
“I think LIV Golf will combine their current team structure – that will probably drop, but they'll still have team events.
“All players go through a period where they may struggle, that's inevitable. If you're struggling and you're looking for confidence, there is no better way to find that than by participating in a team event, where your teammates can actually oomph you up a bit and get you going.
“You often see that form gets turned around during the Presidents Cup or the Ryder Cup, where players suddenly find form they didn't even know they had.
“If it's done right, and we think it will be, you could see this fantastic buffet of golf throughout the year in different places around the world, and one or two different formats that we aren’t used to seeing, such as team events.
“All of those events would see the players earn points that would secure them a spot at the season-ending events on the PGA Tour and DP World Tour – that still needs to be worked out.
“But I'm confident that there will be an end-to-end calendar with about 60 tournaments, with players looking to play around 25 in order to gather all the points they need if they play well.
“If they don't play so well, they can add some events throughout the year, and then at the end of the year, you tally up the points and they are where they are.
“I think that will be great for the sport.”
'As a fan, you miss a Bryson DeChambeau'
When the framework agreement was announced last year, shocking the sporting world, the three organisations committed to working “cooperatively” and in “good faith” to establish a fair and objective process for players wishing to reapply for membership with the PGA Tour or DP World Tour.
DP World Communications Officer confident LIV, PGA and DP World Tour deal will be finalised within six months
Daniel Van Otterdijk isn't a fan of penalising players for joining LIV Golf
gulfnews.com
