LIV Golf

[TheDiablo]

Okay you agree, no actual criteria that can be reviewed.
Just bumbling, whataboutery press releases.

I don't really care if they receive points or not, just feel the OWGR have embarrassed themselves throughout this, and it could have been so easily avoided. Just publish some rules that they don't adhere to. End it.

Again though, why is it their job to dictate, and not create formulas to work out?

Because someone has to, and the majors have decided they are best placed to

So again to you, where does it end if Liv get points having bent the criteria? Qatar 6s? Monthly medal? Dog and Duck Society outing?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Because someone has to, and the majors have decided they are best placed to

So again to you, where does it end if Liv get points having bent the criteria? Qatar 6s? Monthly medal? Dog and Duck Society outing?

What if no cut invitational limited field events get points on the PGAT…

 

[BubbaP]

Because someone has to, and the majors have decided they are best placed to

So again to you, where does it end if Liv get points having bent the criteria? Qatar 6s? Monthly medal? Dog and Duck Society outing?

That's not for me to answer, but if owgr published the criteria then they could - for example
Criteria 7B - must be over 18 holes.

The fact they have been unable to come out with something like:

Does not adhere to criteria 14, section 3, and does not adhere to criteria 18 section 2.

Is laughable .

Instead it is
"board committee felt"

So tellingly subjective.
QED.

 

[TheDiablo]

That's not for me to answer, but if owgr published the criteria then they could - for example
Criteria 7B - must be over 18 holes.

The fact they have been unable to come out with something like:

Does not adhere to criteria 14, section 3, and does not adhere to criteria 18 section 2.

Is laughable .

Instead it is
"board committee felt"

So tellingly subjective.
QED.

How very convenient that you choose not to answer, yet push others to answer your points. Big L.

But to shut the door fully, owgr showed flexibility by conceding on some of the criteria, namely average field size (75) and age of tour (2 years) to name but 2.

NN.

 

[TheDiablo]

What if no cut invitational limited field events get points on the PGAT…

#16,139

 

[BubbaP]

How very convenient that you choose not to answer, yet push others to answer your points. Big L.

But to shut the door fully, owgr showed flexibility by conceding on some of the criteria, namely average field size (75) and age of tour (2 years) to name but 2.

NN.

Seems you continue to miss the point.
You make statements but can't demonstrate them. And again above.
I'm genuinely willing to be convinced if you have something of substance to share.

If you really want to go back to the silly 6 holes example. They could just work out a formula, what would really be the problem with the winner gaining something like 0.000001 points?

 

[Reemul]

It's not unreasonable to expect someone to just publish the criteria required. Maybe they don't want to as it may mean LIV would then achive said criteria.

Just put the rules up in black and white and say you don't do this this and this if you do we can take another look.

What is funny is the LIV topic, the Electric Car one and The footbal one have the same protagonists in all of them, it's like deja vu in these 3 topics. I mean you can see why some people have 40,000+ posts

 

[Mel Smooth]

#16,139

To be fair, once the PIF money is agreed for the PGAT, this discussion is history anyway..

 

[wjemather]

How very convenient that you choose not to answer, yet push others to answer your points. Big L.

But to shut the door fully, owgr showed flexibility by conceding on some of the criteria, namely average field size (75) and age of tour (2 years) to name but 2.

NN.

Please stop waving around the word "criteria" as if it means anything. Decisions are entirely at the discretion of the owgr board.

 

[BridgfordBlue]

I watched Liv for the first time last night, because I tend to watch golf on Sunday evening and nothing else was on.

The golf was good, with a lot of top players now. But man that course is awful, and easy. No different to when it was a PGAT stop though. One shot where Rahm was in the 'primary rough' was 20 yards from the fairway with a better lie than most summer course fairways.

The broadcast is also good, some of the graphics are great, very modern looks to it all - av score from L/C/R for tee shots being the best. Need to get rid of that awful putting thing though, its fine before a putt but not during it. I was expecting to see more shots than I did, but it seems they now have a good balance between showing shots and not racing around to show every shot. The leaderboard is fine and non-obtrusive but they need to stop making changes to it and then show the shots after - you know when the putt is going in that way!

Commentary made me feel queasy, but that might be a general dislike of Feherty more than anything else - other opinions are fine and valid. But also don't say things like 'Mayakoba is the traditional home of the Liv season kick-off' and 'he is now in major contention on championship Sunday!'.

The team stuff is awful - it is just a non-event yet constantly rammed down your throat. None of them play together, which is odd as no on-course camaraderie, and then they just add stuff up at the end and declare a champion, when you can tell no individual gives it a second thought when they're playing. They should make Thursday a team day, play some matchplay, mix it up with foursomes/betterball/singles/scramble/celeb partner etc. Either that or have something like 10 individual and 6 team events through the season. Properly lean into it, create some rivalry, have players in same team playing. Just seems like a massive missed opportunity to actually diversify away from tradition.

Shotgun start isnt for me, especially when you consider the final group lost 2 holes. And I like to see the back 9 unfold evenly, not jumping around holes or understanding exactly who has what holes left, it struggles to build a story.

The music is awful on the broadcast. You can tell the players dont like it either. Just bin it.

The total market of viewers for golf isn't going to grow at any noticeable rate. I don't understand why they have chosen to compete with some of the PGAT Signature events tbh, when there is ample opportunity to schedule it on other weekends. Having watched it last night, I would rather watch Liv than, for example, the Amex. But I'm not going to watch it up against Pebble, WM, etc. I'm also not going to watch it outside of Sunday eve, which is just the time I usually watch any golf (outside of majors). So it might be the only time I watch it this year.

Completely agree with all of that.

I watched it on Sunday and despite a few tries, I just can’t get on with the product. I’m not a fan of the shotgun start and the team side to me has to be match play for it to have any chance of working. It could be great if they did that and I thought Rory’s suggestion of having a few events focussed on team events was a good one.

The biggest issue I’ve got though is I’m less interested in the PGA tour too due to the splitting of the field. There’s a lot of golfers now on Liv that I like to watch and it just made me think how good the field used to be before liv existed. When it’s on at the same time as PGA events, that’s even more amplified as to me, instead of growing the game and gaining interest at the highest level, all it’s achieved is having two poorer products people could watch than one good one. The upshot is personally I’ll watch less professional golf than I used to.

 

[wjemather]

Completely agree with all of that.

I watched it on Sunday and despite a few tries, I just can’t get on with the product. I’m not a fan of the shotgun start and the team side to me has to be match play for it to have any chance of working. It could be great if they did that and I thought Rory’s suggestion of having a few events focussed on team events was a good one.

The biggest issue I’ve got though is I’m less interested in the PGA tour too due to the splitting of the field. There’s a lot of golfers now on Liv that I like to watch and it just made me think how good the field used to be before liv existed. When it’s on at the same time as PGA events, that’s even more amplified as to me, instead of growing the game and gaining interest at the highest level, all it’s achieved is having two poorer products people could watch than one good one. The upshot is personally I’ll watch less professional golf than I used to.

See this sentiment a lot but it just doesn't stack up with how PGAT fields were pre-LIV. There are about the same number of top players in all the bigger events now as there were before. It's only really The Players that has seen it's field diminished to any noticeable degree.

 

[BridgfordBlue]

See this sentiment a lot but it just doesn't stack up with how PGAT fields were pre-LIV. There are about the same number of top players in all the bigger events now as there were before. It's only really The Players that has seen its field diminished to any noticeable degree.

It’s less about the top players, more the watchable players. It can’t be the case there’s the same number of top players as there was before though, there wasn’t twenty to thirty top players missing on a given week, which is pretty much what LIV has now. Even just five top players missing of the calibre LIV have got makes a huge difference.

 

[Slab]

I quite enjoy watching the rick shiels podcast with morning coffee. Not because I agree/disagree with their views & opinions but because its chat about golf, but this weeks’ liv based podcast had me rolling eyes at the screen a couple of times

Firstly two guys in the trade/industry have no understanding that co-sanctioned tour events are a thing and was the reason liv players could play several ‘DPWT’ events this year
Rick also couldn’t get why ppl might buy liv team merchandise… from a guy who’s just released his own line of RS team merchandise for his ‘fans’ to buy

 

[Mel Smooth]

This should build up to be a useful little library of tips from some quality players.

I've been implementing a few of Cams putting techniques myself lately - left hand on hip to align, weight on balls of feet, let the arms hang - it's definitely improved my putting - and he's undoubtedly at the top end of the game in that area.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoWyc6xDZR3VZ_NRqq4cSzmgjEGebrW5r

 

[Mel Smooth]

I quite enjoy watching the rick shiels podcast with morning coffee. Not because I agree/disagree with their views & opinions but because its chat about golf, but this weeks’ liv based podcast had me rolling eyes at the screen a couple of times

Firstly two guys in the trade/industry have no understanding that co-sanctioned tour events are a thing and was the reason liv players could play several ‘DPWT’ events this year
Rick also couldn’t get why ppl might buy liv team merchandise… from a guy who’s just released his own line of RS team merchandise for his ‘fans’ to buy

He's saying what he knows will appease his viewers I guess, sitting in the fence a little if you will - he was posting on social media yesterday that he's now sponsored by Mercedes Benz - looks like he's got himself a nice shiny Merc SUV - buckshee I'd imagine.

 

[Pin-seeker]

I quite enjoy watching the rick shiels podcast with morning coffee. Not because I agree/disagree with their views & opinions but because its chat about golf, but this weeks’ liv based podcast had me rolling eyes at the screen a couple of times

Firstly two guys in the trade/industry have no understanding that co-sanctioned tour events are a thing and was the reason liv players could play several ‘DPWT’ events this year
Rick also couldn’t get why ppl might buy liv team merchandise… from a guy who’s just released his own line of RS team merchandise for his ‘fans’ to buy

Imagine if one of your mates turned up rocking a RS hoodie & headcovers

 

[Hobbit]

See this sentiment a lot but it just doesn't stack up with how PGAT fields were pre-LIV. There are about the same number of top players in all the bigger events now as there were before. It's only really The Players that has seen its ’m not field diminished to any noticeable degree.

I‘m not sure your comment stands up to scrutiny. For example, how can John Rahm, Bryson de Chambeau, Bruce Koepka, Dustin Johnson et al play on both tours at exactly the same time? @BridgfordBlue made a valid comment, i.e. that the fields are split/diluted because there’s another tour that has ‘pinched’ some of the top guys.

It’s not a new phenomena. Those of us that were going to tournaments in the late 70’s and 80’s will well remember tournaments like the B&H at Fulford, the Laurence Batley/Car Care in Leeds, the Jersey Open and more recently the British Masters. Once upon a time we would see Langer, Ballesteros, Faldo, Lyle and Woosnam at those tournaments but the attraction of playing in the U.S., and the restrictions applied to the players who joined the PGAT, meant the big European names spent more time playing in America, and the European tournaments died through the lack of big names attending. And to be honest, from a small minded perspective, I hope the PGAT does get a good kicking for what they did to the European tour in the 80’s, and are still doing it - the BMW @ Wentworth was forced to move relatively recently to accommodate the PGAT schedule.

As for poor fields playing on the PGAT at present. The big names have always gone into hibernation at this time of year, only really ramping up their schedule in the run up to the Masters. And as to who has the best courses… LIV has a few very decent ones but just like the PGAT & European Tour, there’s some instantly forgettable ones too.

LIV is, at present, here to stay. And in terms of what we want to see, the PGAT might be well advised to find some middle ground or risk losing a few more players, sponsors and viewers. The European Tour doesn’t have the capacity to lose more players and has accommodated LIV to a certain extent. And, bizarrely, has played a bit of a blinder which might see more of the U.S. LIV players playing on the European Tour.

LIV has been argued from a political and moral perspective, and it’s still here. It’s been argued from a quality of field and format perspective, and it’s still here. Like it or loathe it, it’s here and it’s still growing as a product. As much as we may not like it, I’m inclined to think we need to learn to live with it.

 

[BubbaP]

Completely agree with all of that.

I watched it on Sunday and despite a few tries, I just can’t get on with the product. I’m not a fan of the shotgun start and the team side to me has to be match play for it to have any chance of working. It could be great if they did that and I thought Rory’s suggestion of having a few events focussed on team events was a good one.

The biggest issue I’ve got though is I’m less interested in the PGA tour too due to the splitting of the field. There’s a lot of golfers now on Liv that I like to watch and it just made me think how good the field used to be before liv existed. When it’s on at the same time as PGA events, that’s even more amplified as to me, instead of growing the game and gaining interest at the highest level, all it’s achieved is having two poorer products people could watch than one good one. The upshot is personally I’ll watch less professional golf than I used to.

AT&T just finished. Stats say-

2021 had 5 players from top 50 (owgr)

2024 had 40 players from top 50


So, either your perception is incorrect, or the ranking system...

(or perhaps a bit of both)

 

[Slab]

Imagine if one of your mates turned up rocking a RS hoodie & headcovers

Yeah despite watching his stuff regularly I can’t see me splashing the cash on an RS cap but (hypocritically I guess) I have spent £50 on a TW cap so I can at least see why someone who’s been a big fan of say Bubba Watson over the years might buy a RangeGoats team shirt but that notion didn’t occur to them & its hardly a new concept; How many Messi/Beckham/Hamilton fans have bought team shirts without previously being a fan of the team

 

[wjemather]

I‘m not sure your comment stands up to scrutiny. For example, how can John Rahm, Bryson de Chambeau, Bruce Koepka, Dustin Johnson et al play on both tours at exactly the same time? @BridgfordBlue made a valid comment, i.e. that the fields are split/diluted because there’s another tour that has ‘pinched’ some of the top guys.

It’s not a new phenomena. Those of us that were going to tournaments in the late 70’s and 80’s will well remember tournaments like the B&H at Fulford, the Laurence Batley/Car Care in Leeds, the Jersey Open and more recently the British Masters. Once upon a time we would see Langer, Ballesteros, Faldo, Lyle and Woosnam at those tournaments but the attraction of playing in the U.S., and the restrictions applied to the players who joined the PGAT, meant the big European names spent more time playing in America, and the European tournaments died through the lack of big names attending. And to be honest, from a small minded perspective, I hope the PGAT does get a good kicking for what they did to the European tour in the 80’s, and are still doing it - the BMW @ Wentworth was forced to move relatively recently to accommodate the PGAT schedule.

As for poor fields playing on the PGAT at present. The big names have always gone into hibernation at this time of year, only really ramping up their schedule in the run up to the Masters. And as to who has the best courses… LIV has a few very decent ones but just like the PGAT & European Tour, there’s some instantly forgettable ones too.

LIV is, at present, here to stay. And in terms of what we want to see, the PGAT might be well advised to find some middle ground or risk losing a few more players, sponsors and viewers. The European Tour doesn’t have the capacity to lose more players and has accommodated LIV to a certain extent. And, bizarrely, has played a bit of a blinder which might see more of the U.S. LIV players playing on the European Tour.

LIV has been argued from a political and moral perspective, and it’s still here. It’s been argued from a quality of field and format perspective, and it’s still here. Like it or loathe it, it’s here and it’s still growing as a product. As much as we may not like it, I’m inclined to think we need to learn to live with it.

Pre-LIV, each of the supposedly special, now elevated/signature, events were skipped by a decent number of the top players, even Bay Hill and Muirfield Village, equivalent to the number that have gone to LIV, if not more. Only 3 of the WGCs attracted almost all the top players, but even they were skipped by some, and the PGA Tour had already started cancelling them.

As an example, in 2021, Bay Hil was skipped by Rahm, Cantlay, Thomas, Schauffele, Johnson, Koepka, Smith, Scheffler, Morikawa, Ancer, Berger, Finau, Garcia, Niemann and others; Muirfield Village was skipped by Johnson, Koepka, Ancer, Berger, Garcia, Kokrak, English, Na, and others. Very few played Pebble Beach, and lots skipped Harbour Town after the Masters.

It's only since LIV that the tour have pushed all the (remaining) top players to play in the signature events with massively increased prize funds and PIP incentives.

And it's this tour strategy that has caused weaker fields in the weeks in between, not the missing LIV players.