LIV Golf

[wjemather]

Thing with baseball is that the sport in itself is profitable as a self contained ecosystem I think. They get their money from fans and broadcast and are not reliant on sponsors. I know that the most profitable sport in the world is NFL and almost none of their money is from sponsorship. All the money in football is from broadcast. Ignoring LIV for a second - golf goes the other way and for a product that can fill 4 days of TV schedule a week I think they get comparatively little of the money from broadcast, almost nothing from fans. It is very heavily reliant on sponsors which does stretch sustainability. Again LIV aside - for a sport with relatively small appeal - in my view top end golfers are by some distance the most overpaid sportsmen.

Every major sports league in the US gets huge amounts from sponsors that they are reliant on, including MLB ($1.5 billion pa) and NFL ($2.7 billion pa). Equally, the PGA Tour gets huge amounts from their broadcast partnerships (reportedly >$700 million pa domestic) - enough to sink the tour if fields keep weakening and broadcasters look for the exits.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Ripper GC

So Jed Morgan and Matt Jones failed to get back to Liv via the Qualification Event.

That leaves
Cam Smith (C)
Mark Leishman

Im sure they want to keep this as a Australian Team but its hard to see how they do.

Matt Jones finished in The Open Zone so could be invited back on the team.

Which other Aussie players could have the $$$ waived at them to join the team

Jason Day
Min Woo Lee
Adam Scott

After the Rahm signing I dont write off anything happening but I dont see those players coming across, Maybe Jason Day ??

 

[WGCRider]

Every major sports league in the US gets huge amounts from sponsors that they are reliant on, including MLB ($1.5 billion pa) and NFL ($2.7 billion pa). Equally, the PGA Tour gets huge amounts from their broadcast partnerships (reportedly >$700 million pa domestic) - enough to sink the tour if fields keep weakening and broadcasters look for the exits.

oh yes - for sure. My (badly made) point was more about the weight of each revenue source. For both MLB and NFL sponsors are around 10% of income. For the PGA tour it's more than half.

 

[AussieKB]

Ripper GC

So Jed Morgan and Matt Jones failed to get back to Liv via the Qualification Event.

That leaves
Cam Smith (C)
Mark Leishman

Im sure they want to keep this as a Australian Team but its hard to see how they do.

Matt Jones finished in The Open Zone so could be invited back on the team.

Which other Aussie players could have the $$$ waived at them to join the team

Jason Day
Min Woo Lee
Adam Scott

After the Rahm signing I dont write off anything happening but I dont see those players coming across, Maybe Jason Day ??

cannot see any of them going....but with Day's injury issues it would be perfect for him

 

[wjemather]

oh yes - for sure. My (badly made) point was more about the weight of each revenue source. For both MLB and NFL sponsors are around 10% of income. For the PGA tour it's more than half.

Your figures seem to be way off.

PGA Tour total revenue $1.6 billion; sponsorship income $352 million - that's a little over 20%
MLB total revenue $10.32 billion; sponsorship income $1.5 billion - that's a little under 15%
NFL total revenue $18.6 billion; sponsorship income $2.7 billion - that's a little under 15%

Note: the PGA Tour figures are from before the latest broadcast deal came into effect (and sponsors started running for the hills), so the % from sponsorship has likely dropped.

 

[BubbaP]

The size of field is critical, and a LIV weakness ad long as their top end is weak.
Having 50 unknowns in a PGAT event if you have most if the top 80 golfers in the world as well. The win is validated by the good golfers you beat, not the filler. The weakness in a LIV win, and why the exhibition and low regard for any wins on it, is not realy that there are 20 nobodies in the field per se, its that that leaves very few good golfers to beat. So the win has little value. Beatin Poulter, McDowell, etc counts for nothing either. LIV is really a 10 man competition.
( or 11 now with Jon !).

Really have to wonder how much you followed the PGAT prior to 2022, your description surely only applied to a minority of the schedule.
Of course the field strength is lower than the top echelon events elsewhere - we know you have this obsession for wishing to watch all the top guys together all of time, and that's fine, but try to comprehend that others may be happy to see that happen at the majors - which makes them special.
Also think golf is more unpredictable than you suggest, why haven't the top 10 you come with won every event

 

[BubbaP]

To me it seems like a pretty simple equation. PIF (LIV) have pumped billions in a bunch of players to play some golf - with no revenue in sight. So, LIV golf is clearly not a business. So what are they paying for? The Sauds want to be palatable in the West without actually implementing human rights (which would cost them no money at all!?).

With this in mind, buying Rahm and others is a power move to break PGA resistance to the PIF deal. They want nothing less than to own world golf. And they will spend no end of money to do so.

So, you can't really blame Rahm for taking the money, as the PGA will now fold and sell out anyway. All the players will be dancing to the Saud's tune, only some will be making 10x as much money.

End of this story: by 2025 the Saudi regime will own professional golf.

Aren't US based Fenway Sports now potentially the favourites for 'PGA Enterprises' ?

 

[Deleted member 21445]

I think it's always worth remembering Liv is a start up business in its infancy.

It needs time for it's full growth to happen and then be fully judged.
It's only 20 odd events old.

The Rahm move and other big names rumoured to be going could be a tipping point to open up investments in the Franchises and a better media deal down the line.

Callaway investing in Rahms team will set a precident if it is announced.
Other manufacturers will be watching that happen.

Liv Golf is not going anywhere, it's just a matter of how along with the PGAT they are going to come together under the same umbrella.

Or god forbid we stay divided with no deal

 

[r0wly86]

I think it's always worth remembering Liv is a start up business in its infancy.

It needs time for it's full growth to happen and then be fully judged.
It's only 20 odd events old.

The Rahm move and other big names rumoured to be going could be a tipping point to open up investments in the Franchises and a better media deal down the line.

Callaway investing in Rahms team will set a precident if it is announced.
Other manufacturers will be watching that happen.

Liv Golf is not going anywhere, it's just a matter of how along with the PGAT they are going to come together under the same umbrella.

Or god forbid we stay divided with no deal

It's a startup so much as it's still fairly new.

But unlike most start ups it has pretty much unlimited funds backing it up and as such already has more financial clout than the biggest and wealthiest established tour.

In that sense it's not really a start up at all

 

[Mel Smooth]

Worth a listen.

Tony Finau bringing a backer with him - you’d assume it’s Ryan Smith, who’s worth a couple of billion dollars?

These guys knew about Rahm, and were discussing it weeks back.

 

[Backsticks]

I think it's always worth remembering Liv is a start up business in its infancy.

It needs time for it's full growth to happen and then be fully judged.
It's only 20 odd events old.

The Rahm move and other big names rumoured to be going could be a tipping point to open up investments in the Franchises and a better media deal down the line.

Callaway investing in Rahms team will set a precident if it is announced.
Other manufacturers will be watching that happen.

Liv Golf is not going anywhere, it's just a matter of how along with the PGAT they are going to come together under the same umbrella.

Or god forbid we stay divided with no deal

This is a fair position. It may become something in the future. But that doesnt mean it is any good now.
It does not follow that because it is young it is good. Even Rahm has said the events arent real tournaments. If the argument is that LIV is good now, on the basis that it might turn into something good, then, it more or less follows that you concede it is not good right now.
Would you expand your above to something along the lines of - yes its rubbish now, but there are seeds that could make it good some time in the future - that would be a credible position.

 

[WGCRider]

Your figures seem to be way off.

PGA Tour total revenue $1.6 billion; sponsorship income $352 million - that's a little over 20%
MLB total revenue $10.32 billion; sponsorship income $1.5 billion - that's a little under 15%
NFL total revenue $18.6 billion; sponsorship income $2.7 billion - that's a little under 15%

Note: the PGA Tour figures are from before the latest broadcast deal came into effect (and sponsors started running for the hills), so the % from sponsorship has likely dropped.

No sure about way off the only figure I have different to you is the PGA tour sponsorship figure I recall being closer to $500m (the article I read said that Rahm was being paid the same as all PGA sponsorship).
My initial point was that sports like MLB and NHL (and the premier league I suspect - but have not seen the numbers) fund themselves. Golf is more reliant on outside sponsors for funding. I don't know the details of golf's new broadcast deal but if this is an increase that would make sense. As it would mean outside money has less of a hole to fill.
Anyway, Ohtani may be both the highest paid and most undervalued sportsman. Top end golfers (regardless of LIV) may be some of the most overpaid.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

PGAT statement re taking on a 3rd investor to themselves and the PIF is very important.

The current ongoing DOJ Anti Trust Case against them will get a lot worse than it already is if they don't get other investors involved.

It was another of Jay's gaffs when he said "we have taken a competitor off the board" during the 6th June merger announcement.

Although having the upper hand the PIF know this as well so it shouldn't get in the way of an agreement hopefully if they genuinely want to achieve a deal.

 

[Hobbit]

I think it's always worth remembering Liv is a start up business in its infancy.

It needs time for it's full growth to happen and then be fully judged.
It's only 20 odd events old.

The Rahm move and other big names rumoured to be going could be a tipping point to open up investments in the Franchises and a better media deal down the line.

Callaway investing in Rahms team will set a precident if it is announced.
Other manufacturers will be watching that happen.

Liv Golf is not going anywhere, it's just a matter of how along with the PGAT they are going to come together under the same umbrella.

Or god forbid we stay divided with no deal

This is a fair position. It may become something in the future. But that doesnt mean it is any good now.
It does not follow that because it is young it is good. Even Rahm has said the events arent real tournaments. If the argument is that LIV is good now, on the basis that it might turn into something good, then, it more or less follows that you concede it is not good right now.
Would you expand your above to something along the lines of - yes its rubbish now, but there are seeds that could make it good some time in the future - that would be a credible position.

What on earth are you doing trying to twist someone else’s opinion to say “yes it’s rubbish now?” Thats for them to say, and they got nowhere near that. As for it would be a credible position… LIV, for all anyone’s opinion already is credible. The current crop of decent players make it so.

It’s something now. It appeals to people now. It’s growing with the addition of some seriously good player now, including a number of current and recent Major winners. Not everyone wants 4 day stroke play competitions, and to grow the game more variants are needed.

I’m a Test & County cricket fan. I can listen to Test Match Special on the radio and instantly know where on the field a fielder is when a commentator says “he’s playing short 3rd man/fine leg/long on etc. But I fully accept T20/IPL/Big Bash etc has made huge strides in growing the game, especially bringing in youngsters who have a shorter attention span. I can watch the ‘short game’ but it’s not my favourite form of the game.

Why can’t a future Major winner qualify through the professional ranks via LIV? Do you want the best in every competition or do you want to exclude the potential Rahm’s of the golfing fraternity?

I want every tour to be successful, and sometimes their processes need challenging to increase that success. Clipping the wings of challengers is close on illegal in terms of restrictive practices. But you seem fine with the status quo which, in effect, doesn’t drive innovation and improvement.

 

[Backsticks]

The latest No Laying Up (#772) has a reasoned agnostic overview of the LIV situation in its first section.

 

[Beezerk]

The latest No Laying Up (#772) has a reasoned agnostic overview of the LIV situation in its first section.

Those guys hate LIV or at least they did the last time I listened to it a few months ago. They usually have sly snipes at anything LIV related so I’m not expecting a balanced view from them. I will give it a listen though

 

[Deleted member 21445]

The most important 3 weeks of Professional Men's Golf is in front of us.

The people in that room are going to make decisions that are going to reshape the professional game for many years, possibly forever.

 

[Imurg]

It seems the rumour mill isn't always right......Final is staying on the PGA...

 

[Mel Smooth]

It seems the rumour mill isn't always right......Final is staying on the PGA...

It's part of the leaving ritual to publicly say you're not leaving...

 

[Backsticks]

Finau and Hatton done deals to move.