LIV Golf

[Deleted member 21445]

Watched all 2 1/2 hrs of the senate meeting.
Extremely enlighting if you join all the dots..

Someone is going to have to roll over and get their belly scratched if their going to come to an agreement.
Both parties want their respective tours to continue.

One needs the agreement to happen and one wants the agreement to happen.

They are 2 very different positions to find yourself in..

 

[Springveldt]

All those demands were turned down - he can request as much as he wants


He may well not want to have the LIV money wasted but PGAT is also in a strong position right now

It’s established, it’s got the sponsers , media deals , ranking points and most of the top players in the world - it’s all there set up

It has everything that LIV wants and can’t get

PGAT can’t keep spending but also LIV can’t keep on losing money each year and getting nowhere

The deal to get money into the PGAT suits PIF and PGAT - once PIF is the main sponser of PGAT and he has his seat then there is no need for LIV in its current format

But there will be some sort of team event with a bit of the current LIV razzmatazz

He knows that LIV has a lot of issues that’s are going to get solved in any time soon , would he play the long game and give it 5/10 years for LIV to gain so foothold - I don’t think so personally.

LIV appears to have been a vehicle to get PGAT to the table and it’s worked and he also used Greg Norman’s vendetta against the PGAT brilliantly

Its a massive shame that golf has allowed itself to be a vehicle for sports washing and it gives me another reason to not bother watching golf outside the majors

Are the PGAT in that strong of a position right now? They have just said today that they would be struggling in 5 years if LIV just continued as it was, the Saudi's didn't need to double down on anything, just needed to continue as is.

The rumours at the start of LIV were that the Saudi's had set aside 10 billion and had a 10 year plan for it. If they stick to that then the PGAT can't compete in the long run and since the PGAT have already given the green light to deal with the PIF more players will follow the money, they always do. When that happens the sponsors will start following the players as well. It doesn't need a Rory, Rahm, Scottie etc leaving, if you get maybe 5 a year deciding to chase the LIV money (the likes of Finau, Keegan Bradley, Sam Burns, Cam Young, Wyndham Clark etc ) leaving then in 4 or 5 years LIV suddenly looks very competitive, you play less and you make way more money.

 

[Barking_Mad]

“I am concerned if we do nothing, they will end up owning golf. They can, they can do it. It isn’t that big, it is only a couple of hundred players. I am deeply concerned.”


Dunne revealed lawyers’ fees had already cost $100m (£77m) per year between the parties. He said LIV has “no economic constraint and no time constraint”, adding: “Their entire existence depends on taking more of our players. We are not complaining about that, it is just the way it is.”

 

[Deleted member 21445]

He may well not want to have the LIV money wasted but PGAT is also in a strong position right now

Interested to know why is the PGAT in a strong position right now ?

If you have taken that sound bite from the PGAT then that was clearly said in the senate hearing that it was around getting the litigation dropped.
After winning the DPWT hearing they felt they were in strong position to speak to the PIF and get the legal case dropped immediately that was draining the PGAT coffers at an alarming rate.

Jimmy Dunne quote from the senate hearing.

"If Liv takes 5 players a year they could gut us in 5 years"

They also said they couldn't sustain the current model and as they lost players they couldn't satisfy sponsors or TV companies and revenue would continue to drop.
Meanwhile Liv has unlimited dollars from a fund that Is forecasted to go from 700 billion to a trillion in the next 5 years regardless of Liv Golfs P&L.

They also said in the hearing that if they went and got private investment from another source they still couldn't compete with the strength of the PIF.

We have discussed on here so many times that The MONEY has the power, the PGAT doesn't have enough to sustain any kind of challenge against the PIF, they admitted that's why they approached the PIF.

Again a fact from the senate hearing Jimmy Dunne was sent an email saying the PIF were about to DOUBLE DOWN on their investment, yes throw even more money at it and Dunne reached out to Yassir straight away.

PGAT also admitted in the hearing they botched up the announcement and pissed all their members/players off and now have to rebuild confidence in their leadership.
The PGAT has retained some top players from a feeling of loyalty, that has been severely dented if not completely removed after the PGATs actions during this saga, so if Liv came knocking again with huge signing on bonus's the PGAT cant rely on loyalty or a morality stance in a hope they will stay now.

Liv will now find it so much easier to engage sponsors as the PGATs actions said its fine to engage and do business with the PIF.

Where is the position of strength because I'm struggling to find it based on facts that were disclosed yesterday.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Interested to know why is the PGAT in a strong position right now ?

If you have taken that sound bite from the PGAT then that was clearly said in the senate hearing that it was around getting the litigation dropped.
After winning the DPWT hearing they felt they were in strong position to speak to the PIF and get the legal case dropped immediately that was draining the PGAT coffers at an alarming rate.

Jimmy Dunne quote from the senate hearing.

"If Liv takes 5 players a year they could gut us in 5 years"

They also said they couldn't sustain the current model and as they lost players they couldn't satisfy sponsors or TV companies and revenue would continue to drop.

Meanwhile Liv has unlimited dollars from a fund that Is forecasted to go from 700 billion to a trillion in the next 5 years regardless of Liv Golfs P&L.

They also said in the hearing that if they went and got private investment from another source they still couldn't compete with the strength of the PIF.

We have discussed on here so many times that The MONEY has the power, the PGAT doesn't have any to sustain any kind of challenge against the PIF, they admitted that's why they approached the PIF.

Again a fact from the senate hearing Jimmy Dunne was sent an email saying the PIF were about to DOUBLE DOWN on their investment, yes throw even more money at it and Dunne reached out to Yassir straight away.

PGAT also admitted in the hearing they botched up the announcement and pissed all their members/players off and have to rebuild confidence in their leadership.

Where is the position of strength because I'm struggling to find it based on facts that were disclosed yesterday.

I have no idea what went on in the senate but if you read my post you will see my opinion of why I think the PGAT is in a strong position

But to help you out


“He may well not want to have the LIV money wasted but PGAT is also in a strong position right now

It’s established, it’s got the sponsers , media deals , ranking points and most of the top players in the world - it’s all there set up

It has everything that LIV wants and can’t get”


I would also add - direct entry in the majors as well


PIF has the money

PGAT has everything else

I’m not sure how LIV will take 5 a year when they struggled this year and they are also restricted in the numbers they have - unless of course they will just bin off a load of players that first went there

PIF is attempting to bully their way into running golf by using their wealth - it’s a shame people aren’t standing up to it

 

[Deleted member 21445]

I have no idea what went on in the senate.

Well I highly recommend you watch the senate hearings to fully understand the situation based on the facts.

The PGAT is in a poor position and that was clearly pointed out by their leaders in front of the senate.

This guy from the media sums it up pretty well in 2 minures to save you the 2 1/2hrs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678821282836787200

Or if you want it from the Pro PGAT golf channel watch here.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Christ...wouldn't trust Riggs and Barstool content in any way.

If they said it was sunny outside, I'd have to check.

 

[Depreston]

The framework agreement is the story for LIV/PGA Tour

original doc - PIF wanted LIV to continue
May 23rd edit made by PGA tour - the tour added language around them being able to make "the final determination of the long term status and viability of LIV"
May 24th version LIV Edit - removed that completely
May 25th version PGA edit "the final determination of the long term status and viability of LIV will be made by the newco board and will not be subject to any veto or consent rights by the PIF"
May 29th Version LIV edit "the final determination of the long term status and viability of LIV will be made by the newco board and will not be subject to any veto or consent rights by the PIF"
Final version no language around veto rights or how it will be determined if LIV goes forward

so its still up for negotiation and i'm guessing PIF wants a veto if the 3 other board members vote against him?

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Its so important the PGAT gets a good agreement.

Liv can continue to do whats its doing offering a different product and engaging a new audience.
Fans can take it or leave it.

The PGAT is the history and the tradition of the sport and we cant take any chances of losing that in the future.

 

[Bdill93]

1) Whats happened to Mel?

2) I think TBD is right, we need the PGAT but the golfing world also needs a global game/ showcase and like it or not - LIV goes around the globe with some big names in tow. Old or not.

I love the idea of both existing and smooth pathways for all golfers to play/ qualify for different events.

 

[sweaty sock]

Whats to stop Saudi just walking away from the talks and saying come play for liv, dirty money was fine for Jay, and the pga yesterday....

 

[Bdill93]

Whats to stop Saudi just walking away from the talks and saying come play for liv, dirty money was fine for Jay, and the pga yesterday....

A few less years of financial losses and a lot of time saved arranging deals etc.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

1) Whats happened to Mel?

2) I think TBD is right, we need the PGAT but the golfing world also needs a global game/ showcase and like it or not - LIV goes around the globe with some big names in tow. Old or not.

I love the idea of both existing and smooth pathways for all golfers to play/ qualify for different events.

1. Can’t see him in the current members so he maybe on a break for the post with the swearing


2. The tour that truly goes around the world is the ET

 

[Deleted member 21445]

As a side note.

Ive been trawling through some of the released documents.

Clearly says that if an agreement is reached Liv Golf will receive OWGR points and points will be retrospectively awarded for Liv events already played to return Liv players to a more realistic rightful position in the rankings.
This obviously refers mainly to players like DJ and Brooks but all Liv Golfers will move back nearer to where they were before leaving for Liv Golf.

Thats huge for the Liv Golfers who have dropped massively down the rankings and many lost qualifications for majors etc

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As a side note.

Ive been trawling through some of the released documents.

Clearly says that if an agreement is reached Liv Golf will receive OWGR points and points will be retrospectively awarded for Liv events already played to return Liv players to a more realistic rightful position in the rankings.
This obviously refers mainly to players like DJ and Brooks but all Liv Golfers will move back nearer to where they were before leaving for Liv Golf.

Thats huge for the Liv Golfers who have dropped massively down the rankings and many lost qualifications for majors etc

How can they decide that LIV events will get ranking points ? It’s not up to the PGAT

That’s up to all the governing bodies and the OWGR panel of which the PGAT and ET only have two seats


And there is zero chance of any “retrospective” points

 

[Deleted member 21445]

How can they decide that LIV events will get ranking points ? It’s not up to the PGAT

That’s up to all the governing bodies and the OWGR panel of which the PGAT and ET only have two seats


And there is zero chance of any “retrospective” points

Once again just pointing out the facts, probably best if we use those
Just telling you what it says in the official documents.
Sky Sports have it on their ticker right now. (See attached image)

For an agreement that is a stipulation both sides have agreed to putting in the framework agreement.
That's not a definitive agreement of course but a framework of what both sides have agreed to as points towards a definitive agreement..

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Once again just pointing out the facts, probably best if we use those
Just telling you what it says in the official documents.
Sky Sports have it on their ticker right now.

For an agreement that is a stipulation both sides have agreed to putting in the framework agreement.
That's not a definitive agreement of course but a framework of what both sides have agreed to as points towards a definitive agreement..

But the simple fact is that it’s not solely up to the PGAT which events get Ranking points

Just as the request for membership to Augusta - it’s not down to the PGAT same as the direct entry in the majors

Doesn’t matter what the document says

It’s down to the

R&A
USGA
PGA of America
Augusta Committee

Plus others

Unless that document has anything from them to state about ranking points then it’s just a nonsense document

The only thing the PGAT control is the PGAT events and any tours they have a control in

 

[Backsticks]

While the future structure of top rank tour golf remains to be defined, I think one element at least is now fully clear - the specific topic of this thread, LIV, has failed.

There is nothing really new in the latest developments, but we have effective confirmation now of what was clear to many of us here and well spelled out over the last 6 months, and I think a review of some sort is now appropriate.

LIV, as an attempt to launch a rival to the PGAT was a complete disaster.
We must not conflate LIV with the PIF though. This particular attempt by the PIF, through the LIV vehicle, is a partial fail for PIF. But the PIF is probably around to stay in elite golf. Their first assault failed. But weakened the enemy to a point of inevitable parlay.

With LIV, PIF backed the wrong horse. Its proposition was unadulterated caca. The whole world saw it, as it failed in its attempt to lure a critical number of the worlds top golfers to make itself a credible competition - despite the extraordinary financial incentives at its disposal. Who said money is everything? This proves it it not. And it failed in its fundamental structure. 48 golfers, shotgun, teams, etc. The world yawned. Sponsors, media, and sports fans said no thank you. Or just laughed at the pathetic and ludicrous bigging up of the Smashers, the Fallopian Tubes, or the idea that wins from a small field with the likes of Chase Koepka in it were even sport. The writing was on the wall following last years Fedex when the spin on an exodus from the PGAT to LIV failed to materialise. Again, (leaving aside the shills and bots - who seem to have been stood down in the surrender), the whole world saw that. LIV 2023 was going to be no more a real tour than it was in 2022, and there was no sign of anything that would change that course. Which is why the PIF was able to take that defeat, but weakening of the PGAT, and change tack. Why Norman is being fired. And why an evaluation of LIV's future 'without prejudice' had to be written into the new structure. It cannot pull the plug on LIV overnight. Contracts, some of its assets in terms of the handful of top players, need an orderly wind down and reintegration into the real new tour structure. Having had its fingers burned with 'LOUDER' PIF is not going to make the same mistake twice and risk spoiling the winning formula that is the PGAT.

So sort of a case of the LIV is dead, long live the PIF.

And possibly time for a new thread as we move on now : NewCo Golf anyone ?

 

[simsini]

While the future structure of top rank tour golf remains to be defined, I think one element at least is now fully clear - the specific topic of this thread, LIV, has failed.

There is nothing really new in the latest developments, but we have effective confirmation now of what was clear to many of us here and well spelled out over the last 6 months, and I think a review of some sort is now appropriate.

LIV, as an attempt to launch a rival to the PGAT was a complete disaster.
We must not conflate LIV with the PIF though. This particular attempt by the PIF, through the LIV vehicle, is a partial fail for PIF. But the PIF is probably around to stay in elite golf. Their first assault failed. But weakened the enemy to a point of inevitable parlay.

With LIV, PIF backed the wrong horse. Its proposition was unadulterated caca. The whole world saw it, as it failed in its attempt to lure a critical number of the worlds top golfers to make itself a credible competition - despite the extraordinary financial incentives at its disposal. Who said money is everything? This proves it it not. And if failed in its fundamental structure. 48 golfers, shotgun, teams, etc. The world yawned. Sponsors, media, and sports fans said no thank you. Or just laughed at the pathetic and ludicrous bigging up of the Smashers, the Fallopian Tubes, or the idea that wins from a small field with the likes of Chase Koepka in it were even sport. The writing was on the wall following last years Fedex when the spin on an exodus from the PGAT to LIV failed to materialise. Again, (leaving aside the shills and bots - who seem to have been stood down in the surrender), the whole world saw that. LIV 2023 was going to be no more a real tour than it was in 2022, and there was no sign of anything that would change that course. Which is why the PIF was able to take that defeat, but weakening of the PGAT, and change tack. Why Norman is being fired. And why an evaluation of LIV's future 'without prejudice' had to be written into the new structure. It cannot pull the plug on LIV overnight. Contracts, some of its assets in terms of the handful of top players, need an orderly wind down and reintegration into the real new tour structure. Having had its fingers burned with 'LOUDER' PIF is not going to make the same mistake twice and risk spoiling the winning formula that is the PGAT.

So sort of a case of the LIV is dead, long live the PIF.

And possibly time for a new thread as we move on now : NewCo Golf anyone ?

Well said, Rory.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Well said, Rory.

I think we’ve found Mel!