LIV Golf

[BubbaP]

LIV is a special case though being a closed shop. You cannot rank golfers on just 4 tournaments a year when they are tested against the rest of the world. LIV exhibitions are unrankable. You cannot take yourself out of competing with the wider world, and then expect to be rated against them. It is a fundamental contradiction. LIVers just didnt think it through, or like Smith for example, didnt really care as long as the cheque was right. To each their own, but you cant have your cake and eat it.

I care not whether they gain owgr points, but reflect for a moment from the owgr site -

A total of 147 eligible events across 24 Eligible Tours have taken place so far in 2023

They pride themselves in ranking players who don't play on just one tour!

At least three other ranking sites seem to be managing.

And who is only playing 4 tournaments outside of LIV?

Flawed thinking, yes seems so IMO

 

[wjemather]

LIV is a special case though being a closed shop. You cannot rank golfers on just 4 tournaments a year when they are tested against the rest of the world. LIV exhibitions are unrankable. You cannot take yourself out of competing with the wider world, and then expect to be rated against them. It is a fundamental contradiction. LIVers just didnt think it through, or like Smith for example, didnt really care as long as the cheque was right. To each their own, but you cant have your cake and eat it.

Except no-one is playing only LIV+majors; most are playing Asian Tour events, some are playing Australian events, etc.

Also, just a few weeks ago, an owgr board member confirmed the obvious - that mathematically, owgr can handle LIV events just fine - i.e. they are certainly not "unrankable".

 

[Backsticks]

I care not whether they gain owgr points, but reflect for a moment from the owgr site -

A total of 147 eligible events across 24 Eligible Tours have taken place so far in 2023

They pride themselves in ranking players who don't play on just one tour!

At least three other ranking sites seem to be managing.

And who is only playing 4 tournaments outside of LIV?

Flawed thinking, yes seems so IMO

There is no real influx from any other tour onto LIV events. LIVers are playing little or no non LIV events. The overlap, qualifiers, mixing between tours and those coming on the scene or fading out of it, is completely lacking in LIV. It is golf off the grid. A ring fenced circus, that doesnt measure it players against potential peers. So they are almost unrankable. And given the cul-de-sac the have driven into, it shouldnt be a surprise its a no urgency topic for the OWGR to concern themselves with. Last year, it looked like it might be an issue - when people were suckered into the LIV PR puff about joiners from the top ranks, and unarguably top rank golfer might be excluded from majors due to their unrankability. But that has not happened. So its a non issue. No matter whether one likes or doesnt care for LIV, it has to be acknowledged there is a serious possibility that it has shot its bolt, missed, and will just fade out now.

 

[Backsticks]

Except no-one is playing only LIV+majors; most are playing Asian Tour events, some are playing Australian events, etc.

Also, just a few weeks ago, an owgr board member confirmed the obvious - that mathematically, owgr can handle LIV events just fine - i.e. they are certainly not "unrankable".

You can award owgr points sure. But with the weak field and no field mixing, there is little or no benchmarking with the other tours going on, making any points minimal and so not representative of the top golfers on LIV. Sure, Koepka should be a top 10 world golfer. But when a victory on LIV is really something between a Kornferry and Challenge tour win, he will never gain enough points to demonstrate his true standing.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I care not whether they gain owgr points, but reflect for a moment from the owgr site -

A total of 147 eligible events across 24 Eligible Tours have taken place so far in 2023

They pride themselves in ranking players who don't play on just one tour!

At least three other ranking sites seem to be managing.

And who is only playing 4 tournaments outside of LIV?

Flawed thinking, yes seems so IMO

Guess the question is what happens next

Will LIV make any changes to their structure to allow their events to gain points


If they do get points at what level will they be at ? I guess it can’t be at the same level as the main tours


And if they do get some sort of points will the players stop playing in Asian Tour events ?

It’s very possible that the events that gain the most points will be the Asian Tour ones


Maybe LIV should take over the Asian Tour - and then have some “enhanced” events in the Asian Tour which are opened to players ranked high in the World Rankings and Asian Tour rankings

 

[BubbaP]

There is no real influx from any other tour onto LIV events. LIVers are playing little or no non LIV events. The overlap, qualifiers, mixing between tours and those coming on the scene or fading out of it, is completely lacking in LIV. It is golf off the grid. A ring fenced circus, that doesnt measure it players against potential peers. So they are almost unrankable. And given the cul-de-sac the have driven into, it shouldnt be a surprise its a no urgency topic for the OWGR to concern themselves with. Last year, it looked like it might be an issue - when people were suckered into the LIV PR puff about joiners from the top ranks, and unarguably top rank golfer might be excluded from majors due to their unrankability. But that has

Guess you'll keep moving the goal posts..
3 non liv players (i.e. not the 48) teed it up in DC, but suppose facts don't suit the narrative.
The main tour memberships don't change much until the Q school at end of season.
Personally I don't expect the liv players to change a lot, but personally I'll wait to the end of the first actual year to make that judgement rather than 'crystal ball' it

 

[BubbaP]

Guess the question is what happens next

Will LIV make any changes to their structure to allow their events to gain points


If they do get points at what level will they be at ? I guess it can’t be at the same level as the main tours


And if they do get some sort of points will the players stop playing in Asian Tour events ?

It’s very possible that the events that gain the most points will be the Asian Tour ones


Maybe LIV should take over the Asian Tour - and then have some “enhanced” events in the Asian Tour which are opened to players ranked high in the World Rankings and Asian Tour rankings

Personally can't see them changing as they've invested in being that way.

If they ever receive points, they certainly wouldn't be at typical pgat level, and can't see players making big climbs but might have enough to prevent the sliding of last year. As we've learnt the last set of owgr changes have put high weighting on field size, if Jay sticks with the plans for smaller fields for the designated events then perhaps some algorithm tweaks may be forthcoming.

Believe we think similar re the Asian tour. The PIF event draws a decent field (I imagine the liv guys are 'encouraged'). Now the DPWT position is clarified the obvious move would be to bump up those international series events and tempt more to them.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Does the team aspect of LIV also create a problem in terms of OWGR rankings? If a player is on his final hole and knows that a two putt from 15ft will improve his teams position in the team event will he risk trying to hole the putt and potentially cost his team a lot of money? If it was every man for himself he'd be much more likely to have a run at it to try to jump himself up the leaderboard for a higher pay check.

I've got no idea if this would come into it or not but was just something I was thinking about last night.

 

[BubbaP]

Does the team aspect of LIV also create a problem in terms of OWGR rankings? If a player is on his final hole and knows that a two putt from 15ft will improve his teams position in the team event will he risk trying to hole the putt and potentially cost his team a lot of money? If it was every man for himself he'd be much more likely to have a run at it to try to jump himself up the leaderboard for a higher pay check.

I've got no idea if this would come into it or not but was just something I was thinking about last night.

It is nuanced and if was team only then would think so, but the individual element has more wonga assigned to it, plus the individual standings also. Is it really any different to any pro thinking do I have a run for a birdie, or lag putt to avoid dropping down.
Can't imagine they use cheques any more

 

[Swango1980]

It is nuanced and if was team only then would think so, but the individual element has more wonga assigned to it, plus the individual standings also. Is it really any different to any pro thinking do I have a run for a birdie, or lag putt to avoid dropping down.
Can't imagine they use cheques any more

Regards to latter part, it would be different to that. Are ranking points not based on position in field, rather than your actual score? So a player deciding to lag a putt is still focusing on his individual position within the field.

Whereas I think the question asked was related to a player focusing more on the team aspect than their individual placing. Perhaps they are not conteding individualy for the win, and so focus more on their scoring for the team, which may alter their final individual position.

I can't imagine such an issue would have any major consequences, but perhaps just another aspect that may be considered when team golf is involved?

 

[BubbaP]

Regards to latter part, it would be different to that. Are ranking points not based on position in field, rather than your actual score? So a player deciding to lag a putt is still focusing on his individual position within the field.

Whereas I think the question asked was related to a player focusing more on the team aspect than their individual placing. Perhaps they are not conteding individualy for the win, and so focus more on their scoring for the team, which may alter their final individual position.

I can't imagine such an issue would have any major consequences, but perhaps just another aspect that may be considered when team golf is involved?

Agree but the comparison I was trying to make, let's try an example - Rory is a couple back from the lead, he doesn't care about coming 2nd so is chasing pins - but it doesn't work out and he triples to finish 5th. Mr journeyman doesn't really think he can win so coasts in and jumps up to 2nd. Have the rankings been compromised?
Really I suspect pros just try and shoot the lowest they can whatever and let other stuff sort out. Think the spectators apply a lot if this other stuff to build interest.

 

[Swango1980]

Agree but the comparison I was trying to make, let's try an example - Rory is a couple back from the lead, he doesn't care about coming 2nd so is chasing pins - but it doesn't work out and he triples to finish 5th. Mr journeyman doesn't really think he can win so coasts in and jumps up to 2nd. Have the rankings been compromised?
Really I suspect pros just try and shoot the lowest they can whatever and let other stuff sort out. Think the spectators apply a lot if this other stuff to build interest.

I suspect not. Because both players are still focused on their individual placing and doing as best they can. Rory by gambling, and trying to aim for first. The journeyman by trying to consolidate his current position. It's a bit like a risk and reward hole, but rather than taking the risk at a specific hole (or not), you are applying the same logic to your overall score in the closing holes.

 

[Mel Smooth]

CEO says Endeavor considered $1 billion investment in LIV Golf that would've replaced Saudi Arabia

Ari Emanuel shared some interesting opinions on Saudi Arabia while discussing LIV Golf.

golfweek.usatoday.com

 

[r0wly86]

CEO says Endeavor considered $1 billion investment in LIV Golf that would've replaced Saudi Arabia

Ari Emanuel shared some interesting opinions on Saudi Arabia while discussing LIV Golf.

golfweek.usatoday.com

in summary 2 LIV players approached the CEO, they had some discussions but decided not to invest because they have a good relationship with the PGAT and didn't want to jeopardise it.

Not particularly insightful, nothing on if it were a good investment, or what they thought of it as a company, just simply had a look at it and then didn't invest

 

[Mel Smooth]

Boom!!!

PGA Tour agrees to merge with Saudi-backed rival LIV Golf

The PGA Tour is merging with Saudi-backed rival LIV Golf, following months of tensions and mounting lawsuits between the competitors.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Orikoru]

Boom!!!

PGA Tour agrees to merge with Saudi-backed rival LIV Golf

The PGA Tour is merging with Saudi-backed rival LIV Golf, following months of tensions and mounting lawsuits between the competitors.

www.cnbc.com

What the hell... this is huge news isn't it? Where has that come from? It genuinely feels like an April Fool.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

What the hell... this is huge news isn't it? Where has that come from? It genuinely feels like an April Fool.

I cant wait to see what Rory has to say.....

 

[Mel Smooth]

What the hell... this is huge news isn't it? Where has that come from? It genuinely feels like an April Fool.

I had to double check before posting the link

Common sense finally prevails.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

There will be some brains exploding all over golf right now.

Good for the game though. Splitting things up, animosity etc was never a positive.

 

[PJ87]

What the hell... this is huge news isn't it? Where has that come from? It genuinely feels like an April Fool.

I'm completely lost.. they have spent months fighting it...months throwing money at the tour to keep up

Then as you say is it April 1st???