LIV Golf

[doublebogey7]

There is a qualification process for LIV going forwards, so it’s not invite only, and, no player is banned.

Ok, what is their qualifying criteria, I know there has been talk of one, but not seen in one announced officially. They seem to be saying that the 48 for the season are to be announced soon, but no announcment in how you qualify to be one of the 48.

 

[Dando]

Yes. That’s obviously correct. But don’t you see it is not dissimilar to the PGA Tour…
1) No-one has an ‘equal chance’ to qualify for PGA Tour events — if sponsors deem you ‘marketable’ enough or a big name / useful for them, you’ll get a sponsors invitation..irrespective of recent golfing performance or ranking

2) You need serious financial backers behind you in most cases, to make it as a pro golfer —- take two equally talented 20 yr old rookie pros…one a blue-blood Trust Fund kid from Connecticut and another from Kazakhstan —— it is not a utopian level playing field so although LIV patently is not, neither is the PGA Tour

How the PGA Tour fudged their own criteria and gave millions from PIP to the East Asian golfers from huge markets - Japan and Korea - to entice them / essentially bribe them to not go to LIV is exactly this — “because the PGA Tour think they’re more marketable”

Honestly the naivety and credulousness from PGA Tour ‘supporters’ is astounding

Edit: I strongly recommend listening to former US Amateur Champ Andy Ogletree’s interview with the Alan Shipnuck podcast for context

they have monday qualifiers

 

[Mel Smooth]

to be fair the bar is set pretty low if they let Patrick Reed play

Aye, he’s rubbish. Shame his ball didn’t bounce out of the wrong tree, he’d have beaten that hacker Mcilroy if it had. ;-)

 

[Swango1980]

Yes. That’s obviously correct. But don’t you see it is not dissimilar to the PGA Tour…
1) No-one has an ‘equal chance’ to qualify for PGA Tour events — if sponsors deem you ‘marketable’ enough or a big name / useful for them, you’ll get a sponsors invitation..irrespective of recent golfing performance or ranking

2) You need serious financial backers behind you in most cases, to make it as a pro golfer —- take two equally talented 20 yr old rookie pros…one a blue-blood Trust Fund kid from Connecticut and another from Kazakhstan —— it is not a utopian level playing field so although LIV patently is not, neither is the PGA Tour

How the PGA Tour fudged their own criteria and gave millions from PIP to the East Asian golfers from huge markets - Japan and Korea - to entice them / essentially bribe them to not go to LIV is exactly this — “because the PGA Tour think they’re more marketable”

Honestly the naivety and credulousness from PGA Tour ‘supporters’ is astounding

Edit: I strongly recommend listening to former US Amateur Champ Andy Ogletree’s interview with the Alan Shipnuck podcast for context

This isn't about being a "PGA Supporter". I have no strong love of the PGA. Rather, I enjoy watching professional golf, and the PGA is the tour that does it best for me. It has had many years to adapt and improve. But, it is by no means perfect, nothing ever will. If something came along better than the PGA Tour, then no doubt I would be a fan of that.

This is about LIV. It is a LIV thread. It is just that it is compared to the PGAT as that is obviously the gold standard tour out there at the moment.

In reference to Point 1, you seem to be focusing on the few positions out of many that are "sponsor invites"? Why do you ignore the vast majority of the field on the PGAT that qualify to be there? You could be the most boring, bland person on the face of the planet. But if you are good enough at golf, you'll qualify to play on the PGAT. I don't think Sponsors will inform the PGAT that that player should not play?

In terms of point 2, you are simply talking about an individuals route to become a professional golfer. Those everyday barriers are there for everyone, even the guys now on LIV. Those barriers will exist for all sports to one degree or another, and in many vocations. However, if that 20 year old rookie from Kazakhstan is brilliant at golf, then there will be a route for him to take to get on the PGAT. He will probably need assistance early in his career to play in the events he needs to. But, there is a route to PGAT. If he is good enough, he can't be ignored. However, where is his route to LIV? The 20 year old kid from Connecticut could well have a better chance of getting an invite, even if he is worse at golf, if the LIV guys think he is more marketable. Or, vice versa. Maybe the LIV guys think the golfer from Kazakhstan is a great person to invite, because he has generated a cult following in his country and Asia, yet the 20 year old from Connecticut doesn't get a look in, simply because he is just another bog standard American golfer (even though he may be a lot better than the Kasakhstani).

 

[evemccc]

This isn't about being a "PGA Supporter". I have no strong love of the PGA. Rather, I enjoy watching professional golf, and the PGA is the tour that does it best for me. It has had many years to adapt and improve. But, it is by no means perfect, nothing ever will. If something came along better than the PGA Tour, then no doubt I would be a fan of that.

This is about LIV. It is a LIV thread. It is just that it is compared to the PGAT as that is obviously the gold standard tour out there at the moment.

In reference to Point 1, you seem to be focusing on the few positions out of many that are "sponsor invites"? Why do you ignore the vast majority of the field on the PGAT that qualify to be there? You could be the most boring, bland person on the face of the planet. But if you are good enough at golf, you'll qualify to play on the PGAT. I don't think Sponsors will inform the PGAT that that player should not play?

In terms of point 2, you are simply talking about an individuals route to become a professional golfer. Those everyday barriers are there for everyone, even the guys now on LIV. Those barriers will exist for all sports to one degree or another, and in many vocations. However, if that 20 year old rookie from Kazakhstan is brilliant at golf, then there will be a route for him to take to get on the PGAT. He will probably need assistance early in his career to play in the events he needs to. But, there is a route to PGAT. If he is good enough, he can't be ignored. However, where is his route to LIV? The 20 year old kid from Connecticut could well have a better chance of getting an invite, even if he is worse at golf, if the LIV guys think he is more marketable. Or, vice versa. Maybe the LIV guys think the golfer from Kazakhstan is a great person to invite, because he has generated a cult following in his country and Asia, yet the 20 year old from Connecticut doesn't get a look in, simply because he is just another bog standard American golfer (even though he may be a lot better than the Kasakhstani).

Yes.
I am fully aware / it is my opinion that LIV would have got the biggest 54 names in golf / best players (obvs these are different - but also not always necessarily mutually exclusive) if it could have done…

 

[Swango1980]

Yes.
I am fully aware / it is my opinion that LIV would have got the biggest 54 names in golf / best players (obvs these are different - but also not always necessarily mutually exclusive) if it could have done…

If LIV had wanted the top 48 (is it still a field of 48?) golfers in the world at the time it launched, then indeed they COULD have invited those guys to play on LIV. Realistically, they'd have still probably wanted the likes of Tiger, Mickleson and a few others they think will make it more marketable. However, let us be as generous as we can be to LIV, and say they invited the Top 48 golfers. Let us say they all said Yes. There could be no argument the quality of the field is very high at that moment.

But, if you were the 49th best player in the world, the 69th, the 109th, etc, how can they qualify? What method would LIV use to ensure all golfers have a fair chance to qualify for LIV? Who would they kick off LIV? Will it depend on their contract value, or how they are performing on the golf course? If LIV were just selecting players on World Rankings, how would that be done. Even before LIV, there would be debates as to how accurate the World Rankings are, hence why there are multiple ways to qualify for PGAT. After LIV, there would be a much greater separation between LIV players and others, with LIV players generally focusing on LIV events. So, how can we fairly assess whether the 48th best golfer in the world that joined LIV, is still better than the 49th best player in the world once LIV events got going? Would there be a promotion / relegation instead, where the bottom 10 LIV guys, for example, would lose their spot and the top 10 outside LIV would take their place? Regardless of contract values?

And, to be honest, all of that is just questioning how qualification COULD happen, or not. But, it isn't what actually happens. There is no proper system to qualify. It is subject to an invite, where clearly the very best few golfers in the world would not go unnoticed and probably get invited. The likes of McIlroy, Spieth, Thomas, Cantlay, etc. The likes of Woods would get invited based on his achievements. But, further down the pecking order, when you are filling those last few slots of 48, there will be plenty of golfers who think they are deserving based on performances, but will never get that call.

 

[Bdill93]

If LIV had wanted the top 48 (is it still a field of 48?) golfers in the world at the time it launched, then indeed they COULD have invited those guys to play on LIV. Realistically, they'd have still probably wanted the likes of Tiger, Mickleson and a few others they think will make it more marketable. However, let us be as generous as we can be to LIV, and say they invited the Top 48 golfers. Let us say they all said Yes. There could be no argument the quality of the field is very high at that moment.

But, if you were the 49th best player in the world, the 69th, the 109th, etc, how can they qualify? What method would LIV use to ensure all golfers have a fair chance to qualify for LIV? Who would they kick off LIV? Will it depend on their contract value, or how they are performing on the golf course? If LIV were just selecting players on World Rankings, how would that be done. Even before LIV, there would be debates as to how accurate the World Rankings are, hence why there are multiple ways to qualify for PGAT. After LIV, there would be a much greater separation between LIV players and others, with LIV players generally focusing on LIV events. So, how can we fairly assess whether the 48th best golfer in the world that joined LIV, is still better than the 49th best player in the world once LIV events got going? Would there be a promotion / relegation instead, where the bottom 10 LIV guys, for example, would lose their spot and the top 10 outside LIV would take their place? Regardless of contract values?

And, to be honest, all of that is just questioning how qualification COULD happen, or not. But, it isn't what actually happens. There is no proper system to qualify. It is subject to an invite, where clearly the very best few golfers in the world would not go unnoticed and probably get invited. The likes of McIlroy, Spieth, Thomas, Cantlay, etc. The likes of Woods would get invited based on his achievements. But, further down the pecking order, when you are filling those last few slots of 48, there will be plenty of golfers who think they are deserving based on performances, but will never get that call.

Using your ideas here as a basis and ill stress I obviously know its not currently a feasible suggestion -

LIV could have invited the world top 40 and made it clear that the bottom 10 would be cut after the end of the season. They would be replaced by the next highest 10 OWGR ranking golfers - running in cycle year on year. (I assume a cut off date would need to be set but Augusta manage it okay) unless of course they were in that top 40 still due to playing well on other tours - therefore no cut.

8 places go to "sponsors choice" players every year too, so I'm thinking Tiger, Phil and basically either older players with a following OR younger players that draw a crowd/ big social media influence.

Tournaments would run pretty much as they are now in golfing terms, yearly drafts for teams could still happen, big prize pots and shotgun starts.

Its what should have happened in the first place, LIV fighting the PGA tour was always a dumb move in my mind, they should have tried to be a "rolex series" type thing but they didnt.. and here we are

 

[cleveland52]

Lets be real.....even if LIV Golf had the best 48 players in the world, no one would watch them play team golf with a shotgun start in shorts.

 

[Mel Smooth]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621003508110573568

There’s a little more info in the thread if anybody wants to follow the link.

 

[Bdill93]

Lets be real.....even if LIV Golf had the best 48 players in the world, no one would watch them play team golf with a shotgun start in shorts.

Yes they would (bar those opposed to PIF) - every field would have a talent level that would be insane.

 

[Swango1980]

Using your ideas here as a basis and ill stress I obviously know its not currently a feasible suggestion -

LIV could have invited the world top 40 and made it clear that the bottom 10 would be cut after the end of the season. They would be replaced by the next highest 10 OWGR ranking golfers - running in cycle year on year. (I assume a cut off date would need to be set but Augusta manage it okay) unless of course they were in that top 40 still due to playing well on other tours - therefore no cut.

8 places go to "sponsors choice" players every year too, so I'm thinking Tiger, Phil and basically either older players with a following OR younger players that draw a crowd/ big social media influence.

Tournaments would run pretty much as they are now in golfing terms, yearly drafts for teams could still happen, big prize pots and shotgun starts.

Its what should have happened in the first place, LIV fighting the PGA tour was always a dumb move in my mind, they should have tried to be a "rolex series" type thing but they didnt.. and here we are

Absolutely.

Had they invited the top 48 in the world (or top 40 and 8 invites, for example), then those top players would qualify. If any of those players don't want to play, just keep asking people on the next rung of the world rankings. At the end of each season, they could promote a reasonable number of people outside LIV, and replace the worst guys on LIV from that year. Some could be direct replacements, others could be head to head play offs between the guys risking losing a spot, and those wanting to take it off them. For those guys wanting to join LIV, they could partly be selected by current world ranking, or you could also have some open qualifiers as well (to account for the fact world rankings won't ever be 1005 accurate)

There would be lots of ways to do it, but there are feasible methods in which the "qualification" argument against LIV could have been resolved.

However, that is not ultimately what happened. Whether LIV changes in the future to properly address it, who knows. It might be a long time coming, as there seems to be an arrogance on their part by pretty much saying "there is no problem", so would they want to be seen to u-turn?

But, if that argument was knocked out of the water, then it leaves us to focus more on the golf. As I've said before, I'm no fan of shot gun starts. As you get to the business end of the tournament, and you are watching a closely bunched leaderboard, it can be confusing and misleading. Three holes to go, taking players tied at the top, I don't know if one player has a tough par 3 and two long par 4's, while another player has 2 par 5's and a drivable par 4. It is easy to lose focus on what is going on. As golf is played on other tours, you can see how many holes they have left and you can build a picture of what those closing holes are. You know where the birdie opportunities are, where the risk and reward holes are and where the holes are in which they are just desperate to scrape a par. I just don't find a shot gun start overly engaging as a spectator, personally.

 

[Bdill93]

Absolutely.

Had they invited the top 48 in the world (or top 40 and 8 invites, for example), then those top players would qualify. If any of those players don't want to play, just keep asking people on the next rung of the world rankings. At the end of each season, they could promote a reasonable number of people outside LIV, and replace the worst guys on LIV from that year. Some could be direct replacements, others could be head to head play offs between the guys risking losing a spot, and those wanting to take it off them. For those guys wanting to join LIV, they could partly be selected by current world ranking, or you could also have some open qualifiers as well (to account for the fact world rankings won't ever be 1005 accurate)

There would be lots of ways to do it, but there are feasible methods in which the "qualification" argument against LIV could have been resolved.

However, that is not ultimately what happened. Whether LIV changes in the future to properly address it, who knows. It might be a long time coming, as there seems to be an arrogance on their part by pretty much saying "there is no problem", so would they want to be seen to u-turn?

But, if that argument was knocked out of the water, then it leaves us to focus more on the golf. As I've said before, I'm no fan of shot gun starts. As you get to the business end of the tournament, and you are watching a closely bunched leaderboard, it can be confusing and misleading. Three holes to go, taking players tied at the top, I don't know if one player has a tough par 3 and two long par 4's, while another player has 2 par 5's and a drivable par 4. It is easy to lose focus on what is going on. As golf is played on other tours, you can see how many holes they have left and you can build a picture of what those closing holes are. You know where the birdie opportunities are, where the risk and reward holes are and where the holes are in which they are just desperate to scrape a par. I just don't find a shot gun start overly engaging as a spectator, personally.

They do put the leading guys out last/ on the first tee to be fair.. In London they had 2 groups starting on 1st tee - which actually left a couple of holes with no one starting on them - I think (but cant remember perfectly) that they were the leading players that weekend. DJ was in one of the two groups anyway

 

[Liverpoolphil]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621003508110573568

There’s a little more info in the thread if anybody wants to follow the link.

So
1. they love the money , well we all know that

2. They love the time off 🤷‍♂️ why do most of them look to play on other tours and taking tours to court to allow them to play on other tours 🤔

 

[Bdill93]

So
1. they love the money , well we all know that

2. They love the time off 🤷‍♂️ why do most of them look to play on other tours and taking tours to court to allow them to play on other tours 🤔

Why wouldn't they want to test themselves against other great golfers from time to time? Maybe they want to warm up in a few events before a LIV event. Lots of factors! Some will, some wont!

Bryson for example doesn't seem too fussed about travelling for other tours - he's gone down the youtube route. Same with DJ (bar youtube)

Reed however seems to want to play everywhere leaving 4 aces tees in his wake

 

[evemccc]

Lol, what a bizarre argument from the liv guy! For all its faults, at least the PGA tour is true competitive sport where anyone who's good enough has the opportunity to play their way onto it.

The very fact there's so much chat about the possibility of Anthony Kim teeing up on Liv shows it's more WWE style entertainment than sport.

Who is “the LIV guy”?

 

[pauljames87]

Why wouldn't they want to test themselves against other great golfers from time to time? Maybe they want to warm up in a few events before a LIV event. Lots of factors! Some will, some wont!

Bryson for example doesn't seem too fussed about travelling for other tours - he's gone down the youtube route. Same with DJ (bar youtube)

Reed however seems to want to play everywhere leaving 4 aces tees in his wake

Sounds like having more choice wasn't almost part of their reasons ...

Reed plays (and cheats) much as he wants

DJ plays when he wants

 

[Liverpoolphil]

Why wouldn't they want to test themselves against other great golfers from time to time? Maybe they want to warm up in a few events before a LIV event. Lots of factors! Some will, some wont!

Bryson for example doesn't seem too fussed about travelling for other tours - he's gone down the youtube route. Same with DJ (bar youtube)

Reed however seems to want to play everywhere leaving 4 aces tees in his wake

So they had all that before with the PGA or ET 🤷‍♂️

They could pick and choose when they played

The one difference is clear - money 🤷‍♂️

Why can’t you just stop with all the other lies and state it exactly how we all know it is - money

 

[Mel Smooth]

Liverpool supporter questions ethics of sportspeople chasing money. Brilliant.

Surprised your morals don’t drive you to support Accrington Stanley Phil. ;-)

Of course it’s money, and a better quality of life. What do you want them to be… PGA Tour martyrs?

 

[BrianM]

So they had all that before with the PGA or ET 🤷‍♂️

They could pick and choose when they played

The one difference is clear - money 🤷‍♂️

Why can’t you just stop with all the other lies and state it exactly how we all know it is - money

Off course it’s about money, If you’re earning 80k a year and a new start up company offers you 160k a year with better Terms and Condition, better pension etc, you’d take the job, No?

There obviously other factors but money makes the world go round.

 

[evemccc]

So they had all that before with the PGA or ET 🤷‍♂️

They could pick and choose when they played

The one difference is clear - money 🤷‍♂️

Why can’t you just stop with all the other lies and state it exactly how we all know it is - money

It’s obvious that it’s the guaranteed money that is the overwhelming reason for the vast majority of LIV golfers

It’s obvious that it is almost exclusively a closed-shop
But isn’t it equally glaringly obvious that it is ‘money’ to the top players / big names — whether through PIP or through changes in prize money % — that is the prime driver for the changes to the PGA Tour that is the ‘Hollowing out’ of the middle/bottom tiers of the PGA Tour - whilst the richest get richer

Equally as true @Liverpoolphil