LIV Golf

[ColchesterFC]

Well, if that's their legal entitlement, why shouldn't they?

Maybe they could take it all over to Saudi and do it in the courts there?

LIV chose to file the law suit in California. No one forced them to or made that decision for them. It was their choice. Now that the court they chose has made a decision that they don't like they are claiming immunity. Seems another case of LIV wanting to have their cake and eat it as well.

 

[fenwayrich]

A much more balance report than the frothy mouthed Lynch could muster...











Saudi Arabia’s $676 billion sovereign wealth fund argued it has sovereign immunity and can’t be forced to provide evidence in a US legal fight between PGA Tour Inc. and LIV Golf, a newly launched rival backed by the oil-rich kingdom.



Public Investment Fund and its Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan on Tuesday asked a federal judge in California to quash a request by the PGA Tour to compel their testimony and produce documents for a lawsuit accusing LIV of unfair competition for offering players lucrative deals to break their PGA contracts.



PIF said it has “high-level oversight” of LIV, but doesn’t manage or control the company’s day-to-day operations. In their filing, the fund and Al-Rumayyan said they had offered to provide discovery in response to “narrowed requests,” but that PGA pushed back, favoring an “all-or-nothing approach.”



Forcing the Saudi fund to accept US jurisdiction in the golf dispute would set a “dangerous precedent” by allowing it to be sued every time there’s a legal dispute in a company it invests in, including Uber Technologies Inc., Starbucks Corp. and Walmart Inc., according to the court document.



The fund claims the PGA isn’t really interested in getting documents, but instead wants to make its lawsuit about the government of Saudi Arabia, according to the filing.

A much more balance report than the frothy mouthed Lynch could muster...


Saudi Arabia’s $676 billion sovereign wealth fund argued it has sovereign immunity and can’t be forced to provide evidence in a US legal fight between PGA Tour Inc. and LIV Golf, a newly launched rival backed by the oil-rich kingdom.
Public Investment Fund and its Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan on Tuesday asked a federal judge in California to quash a request by the PGA Tour to compel their testimony and produce documents for a lawsuit accusing LIV of unfair competition for offering players lucrative deals to break their PGA contracts.
PIF said it has “high-level oversight” of LIV, but doesn’t manage or control the company’s day-to-day operations. In their filing, the fund and Al-Rumayyan said they had offered to provide discovery in response to “narrowed requests,” but that PGA pushed back, favoring an “all-or-nothing approach.”
Forcing the Saudi fund to accept US jurisdiction in the golf dispute would set a “dangerous precedent” by allowing it to be sued every time there’s a legal dispute in a company it invests in, including Uber Technologies Inc., Starbucks Corp. and Walmart Inc., according to the court document.
The fund claims the PGA isn’t really interested in getting documents, but instead wants to make its lawsuit about the government of Saudi Arabia, according to the filing.

A lawyer for the PGA didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

Essentially, if the PGA want to nosey round Saudi funding of LIV, then everybody will be entitled to nosey round Saudi funding of anything - which ironically includes some PGAT sponsors.

A lawyer for the PGA didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.







Essentially, if the PGA want to nosey round Saudi funding of LIV, then everybody will be entitled to nosey round Saudi funding of anything - which ironically includes some PGAT sponsors.

Isn't there a flaw in the Bloomberg article? The exception to Sovereign Immunity relates to control over commercial activities, not merely corporate investment. Does PIF have control over Walmart and Starbucks? I don't know but I doubt it. I suggest that PIF involvement in LIV is so fundamental as to constitue control, in which case they might find themselves having to produce the relevant information, or abandoning the lawsuit.

 

[Mel Smooth]

LIV chose to file the law suit in California. No one forced them to or made that decision for them. It was their choice. Now that the court they chose has made a decision that they don't like they are claiming immunity. Seems another case of LIV wanting to have their cake and eat it as well.

I'm pretty sure they knew what their "cake" was before they went to court - ie, they knew they could claim diplomatic immunity if necessary. Maybe you're just wanting to find something worthwhile in the words of Eamon Lynch, but you won't, because he's a knobhead.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Tom Kim didn’t get on the PGAT using Ranking points

He gained entry into the 2020 Open through Qualfying series

He then gained entry into the Genesis Scottish Open - he came third which got him into the Open again and his position there got him Temp membership on the PGAT - then he finished well to gain his tour card for this season and then won an event the next week

It wasn’t because of the World Rankings

Ok but the conversation was about qualifying through world rankings from the smaller tours which is being reported as not possible under the new system.

We all know the rankings are not ranking the worlds golfers in any kind of accurate way at the moment.

Rahms said its laughable https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jo...ficial-world-golf-ranking-and-patrick-cantlay
Tigers said its flawed https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-owgr-hero-2022
Rorys said it
Liv Golfers have said it
Smaller Tours have said it

Not sure why anyone would think its working if all the players on both sides of the fence agree it needs reviewing.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Isn't there a flaw in the Bloomberg article? The exception to Sovereign Immunity relates to control over commercial activities, not merely corporate investment. Does PIF have control over Walmart and Starbucks? I don't know but I doubt it. I suggest that PIF involvement in LIV is so fundamental as to constitue control, in which case they might find themselves having to produce the relevant information, or abandoning the lawsuit.

Well that is for the courts to decide. I'm sure the Saudis have more influence on American business affairs than most people realise, after all, the US have effectively turned a blind eye to the alleged murder of a journalist for the sake of a diplomatic business relationship.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I'm pretty sure they knew what their "cake" was before they went to court - ie, they knew they could claim diplomatic immunity if necessary. Maybe you're just wanting to find something worthwhile in the words of Eamon Lynch, but you won't, because he's a knobhead.

I'm not wanting to find anything in anyone's words. I know nothing about Eamon Lynch at all.

Although I would like to find out why you're such a LIV shill. It's almost comical with some of the diatribe you spout.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ok but the conversation was about qualifying through world rankings from the smaller tours which is being reported as not possible under the new system.

We all know the rankings are not ranking the worlds golfers in any kind of accurate way at the moment.

Rahms said its laughable https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jo...ficial-world-golf-ranking-and-patrick-cantlay
Tigers said its flawed https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-owgr-hero-2022
Rorys said it
Liv Golfers have said it
Smaller Tours have said it

Not sure why anyone would think its working if all the players on both sides of the fence agree it needs reviewing.

The conversation wasn’t about ranking points ?‍ or qualifying for the tours through ranking points

It was about how the LIV tour is a closed tour and someone suggested the PGAT was closed and I just highlighted a number of ways that someone can gain entry onto a PGAT event or even tour
As seen below

Golfers can qualify trough the Asian Tour, they did multiple times last year. As for the next event, I don't know, as there's not been any information if they will go down the route of regular qualifying.

How does a player on the Asian Tour qualify for a PGAT event? (excluding invitation which we've already ascertained takes place)

 

[Mel Smooth]

I'm not wanting to find anything in anyone's words. I know nothing about Eamon Lynch at all.

Although I would like to find out why you're such a LIV shill. It's almost comical with some of the diatribe you spout.

I'm no shill of anything. I've said numerous times on here that the decisions made in light of the emergence of LIV, by both the DPWT and the PGAT have done unnecessary harm to the game of golf - Eamon Lynch and Brandel Chamblee are the shills, the one that get airtime because of their positions in order to perpetrate the divide that just is not necessary. It's all been discussed to death in this thread.

If you think the PGA Tour is better with LIV players excluded, why?
If you think the DPWT is better with LIV players excluded, why?
If you think the RC is better with LIV players excluded, why?
If you think the Majors are better with LIV players excluded, why?

 

[fenwayrich]

Well that is for the courts to decide. I'm sure the Saudis have more influence on American business affairs than most people realise, after all, the US have effectively turned a blind eye to the alleged murder of a journalist for the sake of a diplomatic business relationship.

The law is clear, as I stated above. There is no need for the courts to decide. The courts will certainly be required to adjudicate on the facts, so PIF need to establish that they do not have control over the commercial activity that is LIV in order to claim sovereign immunity.

 

[BubbaP]

They can qualify through positions in other tournaments on other tours

Play in Monday qualifying


Gain entry from The KFT

Tom Kim managed it ?‍

Are you 100% sure Kim's first few PGAT events weren't sponsors invites?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Are you 100% sure Kim's first few PGAT events weren't sponsors invites?

Sorry yes Believe he played in some co sanction events early in 2021 ( CJ think and also some lower level events )

Was more talking about how he managed to gain his card last year


“5] In July, Kim finished solo-third at the Genesis Scottish Open, a co-sanctioned event between the PGA Tour and the European Tour;[6] he was one of three players who had earned entry to the tournament through the Korea Professional Golfers' Association (KPGA). With a T47 finish at the 2022 Open Championship, Kim became eligible for Special Temporary Membership on the PGA Tour for the remainder of the 2021–22 season.[7] He earned his PGA Tour card for the 2022–23 season with a 7th place finish at the Rocket Mortgage Classic.[8] The following week, he shot a final-round 61 to win the Wyndham Championship and gain entry into the 2022 FedEx Cup Playoffs. At the Wyndham Championship, he began the tournament with a quadruple-bogey 8 and finished it with a 9-under 61 for a five-shot victory.[9]”

 

[Mel Smooth]

The law is clear, as I stated above. There is no need for the courts to decide. The courts will certainly be required to adjudicate on the facts, so PIF need to establish that they do not have control over the commercial activity that is LIV in order to claim sovereign immunity.

Well given that the teams are taking over control of their own operations as of this year, that wouldn’t be too difficult would it?

 

[fenwayrich]

Well given that the teams are taking over control of their own operations as of this year, that wouldn’t be too difficult would it?

If PIF are no longer funding the existence of LIV, that might be an argument. No doubt the courts will decide. Maybe a compromise will be reached before it comes to that.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well given that the teams are taking over control of their own operations as of this year, that wouldn’t be too difficult would it?

What teams ? Not even be announced

And where are the teams getting their funding from ?

Who is controlling the actual LIV events ?

 

[BubbaP]

Sorry yes Believe he played in some co sanction events early in 2021 ( CJ think and also some lower level events )

Was more talking about how he managed to gain his card last year


“5] In July, Kim finished solo-third at the Genesis Scottish Open, a co-sanctioned event between the PGA Tour and the European Tour;[6] he was one of three players who had earned entry to the tournament through the Korea Professional Golfers' Association (KPGA). With a T47 finish at the 2022 Open Championship, Kim became eligible for Special Temporary Membership on the PGA Tour for the remainder of the 2021–22 season.[7] He earned his PGA Tour card for the 2022–23 season with a 7th place finish at the Rocket Mortgage Classic.[8] The following week, he shot a final-round 61 to win the Wyndham Championship and gain entry into the 2022 FedEx Cup Playoffs. At the Wyndham Championship, he began the tournament with a quadruple-bogey 8 and finished it with a 9-under 61 for a five-shot victory.[9]”

Yep, some invites prior to the co-sanctioned. I probably quoted the wrong post as it was swango suggesting invites weren't needed.
The special temporary membership thing always reminded me of those schools who creamed off the 'top kids' from other schools.
Of course, what it enabled was unlimited sponsor invites for the rest of the season.
And in those invites, the boy did good.

Bio Kim received an invite to the Scottish but it didn't go so well for him.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

The conversation wasn’t about ranking points ?‍ or qualifying for the tours through ranking points

OK
My point is that the OWGR is a mess and has made it almost impossible to qualify from the minor tours for the PGA Tour through an OWGR ranking compared to before, which can't be good for the game.

OWGR is
Not ranking all Golfers in the world right now, been caught on the hop by unprecedented circumstances but it is still the case.
The ones they are ranking are not being ranked fairly across the board.
The very top golfers are having amazing runs of form and their ranking barely changes #Rahm

Can we at least agree on the above or have I, JR and Tiger got it wrong saying its a laughable flawed system.

A simple yes or no answer will suffice ?

 

[Swango1980]

OK
My point is that the OWGR is a mess and has made it almost impossible to qualify from the minor tours for the PGA Tour through an OWGR ranking compared to before, which can't be good for the game.

OWGR is
Not ranking all Golfers in the world right now, been caught on the hop by unprecedented circumstances but it is still the case.
The ones they are ranking are not being ranked fairly across the board.
The very top golfers are having amazing runs of form and their ranking barely changes #Rahm

Can we at least agree on the above or have I, JR and Tiger got it wrong saying its a laughable flawed system.

A simple yes or no answer will suffice ?

I thought the subject on world rankings was discussed for approximately 100-150 pages of this thread, not so long ago. Does it need to start again?

No ranking system is ever going to be perfect. Even if one person thinks it is perfect, it won't suit the individual needs of another. However, a local professional golfer in my county is going to find it pretty much impossible to qualify for the PGA Tour through his world ranking, even if he wins every event. So, what right does a professional playing in any "minor" tour have of getting into the PGA Tour through simply playing well in that tour and the impact on their world ranking. Against much inferior opposition? For all we know, all players with a PGA Tour card are better than every golfer in a minor tour (from a theoretical standpoint), so to simply give a minor tour player enough ranking points to overtake a PGA Tour player, so one player loses their card for another to gain it, would seem harsh in isolation.

However, if my local professional has ambitions, or a professional golfer has ambitions to play on the PGA Tour, there are avenues they can take. If they are good enough, then they will be rewarded. But, there is a journey for them to take. They shouldn't just expect to be gifted the opportunity, as there are probably tens if not thousands of other professional golfers with the same ambition. Maybe they need to take a risk, and play events that will help get them that recognition, help them climb the ladder. Just like us all. You might have a really good computer guy working at a local company. But, no matter how well he does his job, will never get an opportunity at working at the Microsoft HQ in a top position. Unless that is their ambition, and they look at a route that will help get them to that point, and get them recognition.

In some ways, the route to LIV will be easier for many golfers. The many golfers that will never be good enough to make it to the PGA Tour, but win the jackpot and get an invite to LIV. But, regardless, it still relies on an invite, which was the subject of the most recent conversation. For example, I have zero chance of ever making the PGA Tour. But, maybe there is a 0.0000000000000001% chance I could play on LIV, if they ever change the format enough to allow true hackers into the events, in the name of entertainment

 

[doublebogey7]

OK
My point is that the OWGR is a mess and has made it almost impossible to qualify from the minor tours for the PGA Tour through an OWGR ranking compared to before, which can't be good for the game.

OWGR is
1)Not ranking all Golfers in the world right now, been caught on the hop by unprecedented circumstances but it is still the case.
2)The ones they are ranking are not being ranked fairly across the board.
3)The very top golfers are having amazing runs of form and their ranking barely changes #Rahm

Can we at least agree on the above or have I, JR and Tiger got it wrong saying its a laughable flawed system.

A simple yes or no answer will suffice ?

1) All golfers are included in the rankings if they play in qualfying events. I don't at all see how they have been caught on the hop, the system like any other WR system requires tournaments to meet minimum standards in order to qualify for points, and their is a minimum time (generally 2 years) before an applicant will be included. Why should LiV or any other new kid on the block cicumvent that. The Tour (name escapes me) that recently got accepted as been around 6 years.
2) The new system actually offers more fairness in that it is solely based around current world rankings of those players competing. Previousley the lesser tours were more highly rewardwed with points than the players competing warranted. With the exception of the majors of course. Yes this benefits the PGAT as it has nearly all of the worlds best players, I just don't see how that is a problem. Don't you you want to see all the top players playing the same events as many times as feasibly possible, I know I do.
3) Rahm over the last 5 events has moved from sixth to fourth having won 3 of those events. It has always been the case that the nearer you get to number one the harder it is to move up. Of those three wins two have been in limited field events and the other where only half a dozen of the worlds top 100 competed.

It would seem to me that the system has been designed so there is a hierarchy of tours, in much the same way as most other sports operate. PGAT being PL, DPWT - Championship, KFT Div 1 Asian Tour - Div 2, etc. The reality is that this has always been the case, the OWGR merely now being designed around it.

Finally would I prefer to see the best players play around the world rather than staying put in one continent, Yes of course I would as I am sure nearly everyone interested in Pro Golf would. The reality is though that the commmercial's currently don't add up to make that happen as LiV are finding out. Hopefully one day that will change, but I doubt it will in the time I have left on this place.

 

[doublebogey7]

I thought the subject on world rankings was discussed for approximately 100-150 pages of this thread, not so long ago. Does it need to start again?

No ranking system is ever going to be perfect. Even if one person thinks it is perfect, it won't suit the individual needs of another. However, a local professional golfer in my county is going to find it pretty much impossible to qualify for the PGA Tour through his world ranking, even if he wins every event. So, what right does a professional playing in any "minor" tour have of getting into the PGA Tour through simply playing well in that tour and the impact on their world ranking. Against much inferior opposition? For all we know, all players with a PGA Tour card are better than every golfer in a minor tour (from a theoretical standpoint), so to simply give a minor tour player enough ranking points to overtake a PGA Tour player, so one player loses their card for another to gain it, would seem harsh in isolation.

However, if my local professional has ambitions, or a professional golfer has ambitions to play on the PGA Tour, there are avenues they can take. If they are good enough, then they will be rewarded. But, there is a journey for them to take. They shouldn't just expect to be gifted the opportunity, as there are probably tens if not thousands of other professional golfers with the same ambition. Maybe they need to take a risk, and play events that will help get them that recognition, help them climb the ladder. Just like us all. You might have a really good computer guy working at a local company. But, no matter how well he does his job, will never get an opportunity at working at the Microsoft HQ in a top position. Unless that is their ambition, and they look at a route that will help get them to that point, and get them recognition.

In some ways, the route to LIV will be easier for many golfers. The many golfers that will never be good enough to make it to the PGA Tour, but win the jackpot and get an invite to LIV. But, regardless, it still relies on an invite, which was the subject of the most recent conversation. For example, I have zero chance of ever making the PGA Tour. But, maybe there is a 0.0000000000000001% chance I could play on LIV, if they ever change the format enough to allow true hackers into the events, in the name of entertainment

I am sure they are actively looking at "influencers" from the golfing world right this minute, as they don't appear to be able to attract the worlds best golfers. Still don't see you getting in though mate

 

[Swango1980]

I am sure they are actively looking at "influencers" from the golfing world right this minute, as they don't appear to be able to attract the worlds best golfers. Still don't see you getting in though mate

Not sure. Could myself, Liverpoolphil, Mel Smooth and AuusieKB all be given a spot each. Really publicise the rivalry element