LIV Golf

[IainP]

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Thought LIV Tour was supposed to be a “World Tour” ?‍♂️ - majority of the events in the US again ?

I said last year (think you did also) I was disappointed to see so many in US. If that schedule is confirmed then I will be again.
As you have mentioned previously, with 3 majors in the USA and currently a big proportion of the cash + punters there also, it may be tricky short term to reduce but I think they should have tried.
The "World Tour" name is already taken ?, and they currently by % have the most spread. Unsurprisingly the PGAT not so much.

 

[doublebogey7]

As I said, or asked in the other thread - the DPWT championships had a field strength of about 121 - 21 points for the winner. This weekends hit and giggle at the Hero, field strength about 130 - 29 points for the winner with a SMALLER field - how come the winner is getting such a strong points total from a similair field rating, if small fields equate to less points?

*on the events I checked - the usual points for the winner is around 17% of the field rating, at the Hero that shoots up to 23%.

I'll say firstly that given the size of the field and that there does not seem to be a good sporting reason for it, then I don't think this event warrants the breaking of the OWGR standard rules and therefore should not get ranking points.
Now I am by no means an expert on the OWGR but as far as I can make out from reading the FAQs the field rating quoted for each tournament has already taken account of the field size and is the total number of points available for the tournament. It then stands to reason that the winner of a smaller field will receive a higher percentage of the total points available than the winner of a larger field size tournament.

 

[TheBigDraw]

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Thought LIV Tour was supposed to be a “World Tour” ?‍♂️ - majority of the events in the US again ?

The reason the PGA Tour were so threatened by Liv was because they were playing in their back yard in their high season.

Maybe they have done it on purpose to maximise their disruption?
Maybe they have done it to help attract more US players which they are missing?

Who knows but they are defo targeting former PGAT/DPWT venues.

 

[IainP]

Just to close off on some order of merits

Sihwan Kim topped the Asian tour OOM.
Scott Vincent topped the International Series, which seems to have qualified him into the 2023 liv league.

 

[AussieKB]

Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/

 

[Bdill93]

Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/

So overall, unless they just get bored - its going nowhere

 

[Liverpoolphil]

Well worth a read, whether you are for or against LIV.

https://mygolfspy.com/liv-golf-why-the-saudis-care-so-much-about-golf/

Did find this bit interesting

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?”

Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad then ?

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point

 

[Bdill93]

Did find this bit interesting

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?”

Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad then ?

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point

They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them

 

[Swango1980]

They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them

For those that throw the "sportswashing" argument about, I would love them to present us with a definitive list as to what countries we can play sport in, and which ones we cannot. Do we ban all sport from every Middle East country? What about African countries, or eastern Asia? Is South America OK, or do they have issues that make it not acceptable? And, is it all sport, or do we forgive the odd boxing match or Grand Prix? And, is it just sport, or are we talking all business?

I'm still a believer that going all over the world to play sport is, in the long run, more likely to improve humans rights issues, rather than promote abuse. I feel it is much better than turning the other cheek, and just letting other countries get on with whatever they want to do. It is unlikely they'll just say "please please sir, we have stopped doing bad things, can you come and play with us now". Expose nations that have strict regimes to our cultures, let their people see how we live our lives, and hopefully enough quite like the freedoms we have?

Don't get me wrong, I still don't like LIV and I don't think the World Cup should have gone to Qatar. But, both are for sporting reasons.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

They have some what of a point though, why do people hate Saudi but happily see things happen in china and dubai? Selective much...

I think it shows they'll be in no rush to pull the plug. The funds are whopping to us average joe's but pocket change to them

I don’t “happily” see things happen in China or Dubai and many other feel the same , just look at the reaction to the Qatar World Cup amongst other things - people arent fans of human rights abuse regardless of what the country is and people aren’t fans of the rich countries using their money to try and sports wash

The worst thing Golf did or European Golf is jump into bed with Middle East money

 

[Backsticks]

I

The worst thing Golf did or European Golf is jump into bed with Middle East money

I am all in favour of it. Its just our own money that we gave them for oil, coming back to us.

The middle East and golf has been fine. And Saudi tournaments and money would have been fine too. Its the splitting of the tours top golfers that I have the problem with, degrading the elite golf competition product globally.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Did find this bit interesting

“But the goal of sportswashing, in this case, isn’t to convince people human rights violations as defined by groups such as Amnesty International don’t exist in Saudi Arabia. Instead, it’s to elevate the narrative that Saudi isn’t any worse than Dubai or China. And if you’re holding tournaments in and doing business with those countries then, hey, why not us?”

Human rights abuse etc is all ok because others do it just as bad then ?

It also shows that they will no doubt pull the plug at some point

Bear in mind, you’re quoting the opinion of a journalist there, rather than the opinions of the Saudis specifically.

It looks to me like the Saudis know they need to change, and their expansion into sports is part of that change.

It might take decades, or longer, but if they do change, that’s a good thing.

A few hundred years ago (long after golf was invented) people in my area were hung for trying to smash up machinery, if they were lucky, they were sent on a boat to Australia. 200 years - that’s nothing in the lifespan of humanity.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603843614626705408

seems to be a big blow for them

 

[Doon frae Troon]

No surprise to me.
Their business model makes no sense to me.
Norman must be laughing his socks off getting paid all that cash for such a desperately poor concept.

 

[IainP]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603843614626705408

seems to be a big blow for them

We'll probably never know whether he jumped or was push. If replaced wait to see if any change in direction/approach that may help to heal.
Edit - little more has come out...
https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/re...m_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com

Unless I missed it, did seem like the Dunhill avoided much "who's in the field" drama, and winner Strydom benefited from the field strength.
Know some won't agree but it did seem like a nod to how things could have been.

 

[TheBigDraw]

Fire Drill Podcast reporting a OWGR board member has told Alan Shipnuck Liv will be awarded OWGR points around the time of The Masters.

Huge news if true as it really legitimises Liv as a golf tour.

 

[Backsticks]

Fire Drill Podcast reporting a OWGR board member has told Alan Shipnuck Liv will be awarded OWGR points around the time of The Masters.

Huge news if true as it really legitimises Liv as a golf tour.

Not really huge, as it had to come. OWGR doesnt want to kill itself off. And LIV is most certainly a legitimate tour. The majors will adapt too, and invite the top handful of golfers in it when their existing entry exemptions expire.
LIV is somewhere between the Champions tour and the Kornferry, but made easier by the smaller field, so we should see them get points something like placing 11th and down from a Kornferry, boosted if more LIV golfers win majors, or existing top 30 rankers defect, although that road seems a dead end now.

 

[TheBigDraw]

Not really huge, as it had to come. OWGR doesnt want to kill itself off. And LIV is most certainly a legitimate tour. The majors will adapt too, and invite the top handful of golfers in it when their existing entry exemptions expire.
LIV is somewhere between the Champions tour and the Kornferry, but made easier by the smaller field, so we should see them get points something like placing 11th and down from a Kornferry, boosted if more LIV golfers win majors, or existing top 30 rankers defect, although that road seems a dead end now.

It's huge because no OWGR is the main reason players are not willing to move across to LIV who are open to possibly doing so.

If top 30 players are getting offered crazy signing on bonuses and there are pathways to the majors through OWGR or majors own criteria the more will be tempted to switch for sure.

Fire Drill Podcast said OWGR board member said they had to act because of the strength of the Liv Tour field was skewing the accuracy of their rankings.
Like you said they had to act to not kill itself off.

If Champions Tour or Korn Ferry had no OWGR points it would not skew the rankings at all so with respect that speaks more to where Liv truely sits in the world of golf.

 

[Liverpoolphil]

It's huge because no OWGR is the main reason players are not willing to move across to LIV who are open to possibly doing so.

If top 30 players are getting offered crazy signing on bonuses and there are pathways to the majors through OWGR or majors own criteria the more will be tempted to switch for sure.

Fire Drill Podcast said OWGR board member said they had to act because of the strength of the Liv Tour field was skewing the accuracy of their rankings.
Like you said they had to act to not kill itself off.

If Champions Tour or Korn Ferry had no OWGR points it would not skew the rankings at all so with respect that speaks more to where Liv truely sits in the world of golf.

Not sure Ranking points is the main reason people aren’t going to LIV

There will be a whole list

Also when they do get some level of points it’s going to be very small

I suspect it’s far from any done deal unless LIV are making significant changes to move it away from being a closed invite only tour

I also don’t expect the Majors to make any changes of qualifying entry to allow any direct qualification from LIV events or OOM - the LIV tour is not sustainable and could just stop at any time

 

[BiMGuy]

LiV event’s won’t get enough ranking points to attract more top players without the Saudis putting their hands in their pockets again. 54 hole events with small weak fields aren’t going to get many points.