LIV Golf

[doublebogey7]

Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject

I am no lover of the PiP, but for a LIV supporter to criticise in this way is beyond hypocrisy. Remind me how much were Mickelson/Johnson/Smith etc paid for simply being there.

 

[Backsticks]

Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject

'Supporters' of the PGAT dont really exist, and misrepresents the motivation of the anti LIV perspective. LIV is seen as damaging to the quality of top level pro golf. That isnt support for the PGAT.
There is only recognition, among the great majority of golf followers, of the damage the LIV risked inflicting.

 

[doublebogey7]

Is the huge increase in PGA Tour winnings viable long term? If so, how are supporters of the PGAT so confident…why wasn’t such money available before?

Is PIP viable long-term? It’s purely a slush-fund…and the way money was syphoned off to Matsuyama was laughable / ludicrous and the lack of criticism and scrutiny of this by the supposedly serious golf media (looking at you Iain Carter) has been abject

I am not sure an increase of 63M (or 12%) can be considered huge and we'll find out whether it is sustainable when PGAT publish their accounts I gues, but its been aroujnd a long time so I don't see it disappearing any time soon, do you?. How long do you think the LiV model is sustainable and are you happy for a tour to simply write off annual losses forever?

 

[Bdill93]

'Supporters' of the PGAT dont really exist, and misrepresents the motivation of the anti LIV perspective. LIV is seen as damaging to the quality of top level pro golf. That isnt support for the PGAT.
There is only recognition, among the great majority of golf followers, of the damage the LIV risked inflicting.

In the grand scheme of things 48 guys getting paid loads to play on one tour doesn't really make much difference at all. It hasn't so far lets be honest.

 

[Backsticks]

In the grand scheme of things 48 guys getting paid loads to play on one tour doesn't really make much difference at all. It hasn't so far lets be honest.

It certainly would if they had attracted a big enough number of the best. Then the PGAT would be a second division, and the LIV a pre champions ehibition circus. But LIV os a clear failure so far. DJ, Smith, and Bryson are losses. But overall, the PGAT looks like it is sailing on pretty much unscathed.

 

[Bdill93]

It certainly would if they had attracted a big enough number of the best. Then the PGAT would be a second division, and the LIV a pre champions ehibition circus. But LIV os a clear failure so far. DJ, Smith, and Bryson are losses. But overall, the PGAT looks like it is sailing on pretty much unscathed.

Exactly and I don't think that will change.

I understand that in time, if sponsors dropped of the PGAT to go to LIV instead this would harm the tours finances a bit, but harm pro golf? I don't see how, LIV's field is just too small.

Start ups don't make profits for years, LIV has plenty of time to work out their own sustainability - its not a "clear failure" at all. In fact they're doing better than I thought they would be if I'm honest!

 

[evemccc]

I am no lover of the PiP, but for a LIV supporter to criticise in this way is beyond hypocrisy. Remind me how much were Mickelson/Johnson/Smith etc paid for simply being there.

Why do you think I am a Liv supporter???

 

[BubbaP]

I may end up being wrong but I think if LIV doesnt get a big TV deal and take off properly with viewing figures if may wrap up in a year or two.
I'd say the players know that too and the ones that went have been willing to take the risk to fill their bank accounts while they can. The older players like poulter, Stenson and phil. A last money grab if u will.
Cam and Bryson taking huge pay checks to sign. If its only a few years they could easily be knocking on the door of the PGA looking back in if it all closes down. How long can they keep them out in the cold. A year? I'd say it was a calculated risk they were willing to take.
The never will bes like Perez and leisman are happy to make hay while it shines.

The TV deal is big as that's where this tour is supposed to make an income. Still no sign of it even now.
The YouTube viewing figures have been abysmal. All these kids they were supposed to be attracting from this giant pool haven't materialised.
They put on the LIV events on weeks that were quiet on the PGA. The viewers were likely older golf fans eager to see golf from their old favourite players. I include myself in this category. I watched quite a bit of LIV to see some of my old favourite players play.

I predict 2 years to get the viewing figures sorted out or they may wrap it up. Maybe the saudis are happy to pump money into a black hole for minimal gains. It remains to be seen.

Agree with your general thoughts on the players. You may have missed it but last month the media were reporting agreed funding to the end of 2025.
Personally, right now, I can't imagine how to be in a place to balance the books beyond that! Then again I struggle with PGAT balancing in future with growing nbr of elevated events and PIP. Perhaps this just shows I'm not very imaginative! ?
On tv deal, were you meaning in the USA specifically, or where you watch?
My guess would be the 2022 viewing figures were down, but it would only be a guess, are you able to share the worldwide viewing figures? For liv or for any established tours? I've never been able to find anything reliable.

 

[doublebogey7]

Why do you think I am a Liv supporter???

Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT, without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too. Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT, without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too. Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.

Even I'm not highly critical of the PGAT, yes I question some of the decisions they have made and whether they have been in their best interests, but there's no basis whatsoever to any arguments to suggest people dislike, let alone 'hate' the PGAT.

This whole theory that constantly get's pushed that LIV is out to destroy the PGAT, and that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense. People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it? LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.

 

[doublebogey7]

Even I'm not highly critical of the PGAT, yes I question some of the decisions they have made and whether they have been in their best interests, but there's no basis whatsoever to any arguments to suggest people dislike, let alone 'hate' the PGAT.

This whole theory that constantly get's pushed that LIV is out to destroy the PGAT, and that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense. People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it? LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.

If you had a look at posts of evenecc, you might form a different opinion.

 

[Mel Smooth]

If you had a look at posts of evenecc, you might form a different opinion.

I have, he's pretty balanced.

 

[doublebogey7]

I have, he's pretty balanced.

Well we'll just have to agree to differ.

 

[Backsticks]

This whole theory that constantly get's pushed .....that the PGAT needs to survive the threat is nonsense.

It certainly isnt nonsense. LIV was a huge threat to the PGAT. It is still a smaller threat now. Not the the PGAT would go out of business completely, but that it would be significantly downgraded in the quality of golfers competing in its tournaments. If the Saudis could have bought the worlds top 50 golfers, then they would have. Interest in, revenue, and level of competition in the PGAT events would have diminished. So it was certainly in a battle to resist LIV, and survived, pretty much unscathed, and able to continue to be the window for competition between the worlds best.

People don't have to pick one side or the other, infact as golf fans, that would be rather pathetic wouldn't it? LIV will exist, the PGAT will exist, the DPWT will exist, the Asian Tour will exist etc, and proffesional golf will carry on, albeit in a slightly different set up to what people have been accustomed.

Fans arent picking a side. There really isnt a contest going on any more anyway. People just want LIV to go away. Splitting the worlds golfers into two camps would have done nothing for golf spectators. And apart from the loss of 5 golfers from the PGAT of significance, the PGAT will carry on as it was, not slightly different. Virtually unchanged. Which is great.

 

[Mel Smooth]

It certainly isnt nonsense. LIV was a huge threat to the PGAT. It is still a smaller threat now. Not the the PGAT would go out of business completely, but that it would be significantly downgraded in the quality of golfers competing in its tournaments. If the Saudis could have bought the worlds top 50 golfers, then they would have. Interest in, revenue, and level of competition in the PGAT events would have diminished. So it was certainly in a battle to resist LIV, and survived, pretty much unscathed, and able to continue to be the window for competition between the worlds best.


Fans arent picking a side. There really isnt a contest going on any more anyway. People just want LIV to go away. Splitting the worlds golfers into two camps would have done nothing for golf spectators. And apart from the loss of 5 golfers from the PGAT of significance, the PGAT will carry on as it was, not slightly different. Virtually unchanged. Which is great.

So why is Tiger bleating on about Greg Norman stepping down then? The threat has gone according to you. Tiger disgarees, Rory disgarees, and next week, there is a meeting amongst the big wigs on how to deal with the threat of LIV.

Me thinks you are wrong.

 

[Backsticks]

So why is Tiger bleating on about Greg Norman stepping down then? The threat has gone according to you. Tiger disgarees, Rory disgarees, and next week, there is a meeting amongst the big wigs on how to deal with the threat of LIV.

So that LIV can move to a fully non-threatening role towards the PGAT. They believe, and it seems with good grounds, that Greg is driven by more than just LIV success, but PGAT damage. If that element is dropped, and they read it that it can only be dropped by Greg vacating stage, then LIV could have a role to play as a pre-champions tour. Where the likes of Phil or Westy or McDowell can tour the world in an exhibition type structure that lets lesser golfed areas of the globe see them, and provide a bridge to the Champions Tour. The best would still be on the PGAT as is. Guesting from some of the LIV tour could then be entertained. But as long as the push from LIV is to poach the best, the PGAT will always seek to protect its strength. LIV must defuse its warhead - removing Greg and finding its niche without removing worlds top 50 players from the PGAT is the route.

 

[cleveland52]

I am not sure an increase of 63M (or 12%) can be considered huge and we'll find out whether it is sustainable when PGAT publish their accounts I gues, but its been aroujnd a long time so I don't see it disappearing any time soon, do you?. How long do you think the LiV model is sustainable and are you happy for a tour to simply write off annual losses forever?

Alot of people seem to be just fine with that......unbelievable.

 

[BubbaP]

On the subject on monsieur Woods, I wasn't expecting this. The news itself not so surprising (Covid was a big impact), but him being so candid ..

“The PGA Tour took out an enormous loan during pandemic. If we had another year of the pandemic, the PGA Tour wouldn’t have made it. The enormous loan worked in our benefit, hence we were able to use that money to make the [purse] increases we’ve made.”

Also he, perhaps surprisingly, went more with Rahm, and not Rory on the OGWR debate (Dubai)

 

[evemccc]

Maybe because most if your posts are highly critical of the PGAT, without any balancing views on LIV, as exemplified by the post I responded too. Perhaps I have it wrong and you merely hate the PGAT but have no views on LiV.

I don’t really pay attention to any pro golf except the Masters and the Open, and think primarily that golf is always more for playing > watching

I’m strongly against the Hundred in cricket so although several aspects of LIV doesn’t appeal at all, I have watched LIV on YouTube because it’s free - and had players I like more than most Tour pros (Cam Smith, DJ, Bryson)….I think the team element ‘could’ be good tho it certainly needs an evolution from what it is at present.
I have a lot more love for county cricket (in the arguments against the Hundred) than I do for the status quo in golf i.e. PGA Tour dominance, hence I am against the Hundred in cricket but pretty ambivalent about the ‘threat’ the PGA Tour faces from LIV.

I find a lot of the negativity towards LIV disingenuous and hypocritical when the PGA Tour’s actions and behaviour is considered in context

The majority of golf media and in this thread present the PGA Tour as ‘whiter than white’….and the criticism of LIV is plentiful…But because I call out a lot of BS about the PGA Tour doesn’t make me pro-LIV. I’d say I’m a mostly disinterested neutral

 

[cleveland52]

On the subject on monsieur Woods, I wasn't expecting this. The news itself not so surprising (Covid was a big impact), but him being so candid ..

“The PGA Tour took out an enormous loan during pandemic. If we had another year of the pandemic, the PGA Tour wouldn’t have made it. The enormous loan worked in our benefit, hence we were able to use that money to make the [purse] increases we’ve made.”

Also he, perhaps surprisingly, went more with Rahm, and not Rory on the OGWR debate (Dubai)

I think that TW was wrong about the loan part. I think that they used their reserves.

If we use the Rahm logic then the Hero world Challenge would get the most point ever, with 17 of the top 25 playing. ......In a 20 man field.