LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

Liv did nothing wrong in starting a new tour.

This is a real nub of the matter and a more key point then the simple statement ostensibly suggests.
And is the point that many associated with LIV are misreading the room on, and why fans, not quite to a man, but almost, have not engaged with LIV proposal. Or are openly against it.

The statement is true from a legal and strictly logical point of view. They are entitled to do it. People can join it. The Saudi can sports wash if they choose. One can run other tournaments not sanctioned by the existing tours.

But despite all those being the case, from a fans perspective, i.e. those of us who follow golf regularly, tune in to far more golf on TV than just the majors, and follow results from the various tours, rankings, players progress, up and comers, etc, LIV is BAD. We want rivalry on the golf course. Rivalry between tours is nothing but BAD. Splitting players between competing business models and ventures, while it might enrich the players, or further the interests of the backers of the whatever tour does NOTHING for us as the spectators. We dont necessarily need the best 100 golfers teeing it up every week. Nobody wants to watch golf 52 weeks a year anyway. But we do want the best, or a great majority of them, competing for 20 or so tournaments a year. We dont care who runs it (although teams garbage, 'louder', no cut, shotguns, etc suggests one entity is simply trying different for the sake of a business style approach of differentiation, unique selling proposition, or some such corporate boardroom bluesky thinking rather than an understanding of golf). We just want no artificial segregation of the world best golfers, thus diluting the quality of the fields. That is bad. LIV have cause that. And as such they HAVE done wrong. We do not want the world golf show treated as a dog eat dog business or contest between the sports organisations. Call that hate for LIV if you want - but better to try to understand it and recognise it for the harmful element on the world elite golf product it has been. And why the world regards that Liv HAS done something wrong.

 

[BubbaP]

Don't think this had been posted.
Countermeasures...

https://golf.com/news/pga-tour-u-changes/?amp=1

 

[Mel Smooth]

This is a real nub of the matter and a more key point then the simple statement ostensibly suggests.
And is the point that many associated with LIV are misreading the room on, and why fans, not quite to a man, but almost, have not engaged with LIV proposal. Or are openly against it.

The statement is true from a legal and strictly logical point of view. They are entitled to do it. People can join it. The Saudi can sports wash if they choose. One can run other tournaments not sanctioned by the existing tours.

But despite all those being the case, from a fans perspective, i.e. those of us who follow golf regularly, tune in to far more golf on TV than just the majors, and follow results from the various tours, rankings, players progress, up and comers, etc, LIV is BAD. We want rivalry on the golf course. Rivalry between tours is nothing but BAD. Splitting players between competing business models and ventures, while it might enrich the players, or further the interests of the backers of the whatever tour does NOTHING for us as the spectators. We dont necessarily need the best 100 golfers teeing it up every week. Nobody wants to watch golf 52 weeks a year anyway. But we do want the best, or a great majority of them, competing for 20 or so tournaments a year. We dont care who runs it (although teams garbage, 'louder', no cut, shotguns, etc suggests one entity is simply trying different for the sake of a business style approach of differentiation, unique selling proposition, or some such corporate boardroom bluesky thinking rather than an understanding of golf). We just want no artificial segregation of the world best golfers, thus diluting the quality of the fields. That is bad. LIV have cause that. And as such they HAVE done wrong. We do not want the world golf show treated as a dog eat dog business or contest between the sports organisations. Call that hate for LIV if you want - but better to try to understand it and recognise it for the harmful element on the world elite golf product it has been. And why the world regards that Liv HAS done something wrong.

There is nothing stopping LIV players playing on the DPWTC, this weekend, indeed, some are - the quality of the fields aren't diluted because of LIV, no dogs will be eaten by other dogs.
And of course - LIV players are still playing on lots of other tours...

So, who's misreading the room?

 

[Ian_George]

Like the man said......"The system is based on math. No one cares what Jon Rahm thinks or how he feels.

OWGR points are based on more things than how many top twenty players are in the field.

If that were the case, a rogue tour could buy OWGR, right!?!

For example: five of the top ten players in the world playing against 38 high schoolers would be different than the same top ten players playing against 134 pgatour Pros.

He does have a point wrt the current week's tournaments! Run of the mill PGAT one Top ranked players 12, 26, 28, 30, 31 - 223 pts Winner gets 38pts versus DPWT Grand Final Top players 1, 5, 9, 11, 20 - 121pts Winner gets 21pts! Seems overly influenced by the difference in field size! And if I was a betting man, I opt strongly for one of the 5 top ranked guys winning DPWTC, but would be nowhere near as confident about The RSM Classic! FWIW (and perhaps 'to my shame!'), 3 of the top 10 names in RSM list are unfamiliar to me!

 

[Ian_George]

There is nothing stopping LIV players playing on the DPWTC, this weekend, indeed, some are - the quality of the fields aren't diluted because of LIV, no dogs will be eaten by other dogs.
And of course - LIV players are still playing on lots of other tours...

So, who's misreading the room?

That's only because there's a temporary 'stay' in place until the (February) court hearing!

 

[Mel Smooth]

That's only because there's a temporary 'stay' in place until the (February) court hearing!

And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.

 

[Ian_George]

And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.

Not a question for me! But they take points away from guys committed (solely) to DPWT by guys the Tour Management would sooner not participate in it! At least until February court case rules on it! FWIW. Are there any LIV players other than Oteagui actually playing DPWT events? The few I know of stopped after PGA @ Wentworth! That's probably why there's not much 'noise'! Oteagui's win certainly caused some fuss though!

 

[Backsticks]

And how is the inclusion of LIV players harming the DPWT events?
Backsticks has just said that tournaments are weakened with them excluded. Nobody is really even talking about it as a contentious issue - which means nobody cares if they are included, but they are aggrieved about their exclusion.

No, I didnt say what you are saying I said. I refer to the tournaments with the world's best golfers. Other than the sporadic visitor from the PGAT or co-sanctioned events, DPWT events are not weakened with Saudi players excluded. They wouldnt be there anyway. Saudi players being there elevates DPWT tournaments somewhat. It is a second division, and neither here nor there on the LIV issue. But having the Saudis play in the DPWT harms the PGAT. And that is a problem. If more golfers cleave, thinking a bit of LIV and a bit of DPWT is a plan, then the PGAT is harmed, and not replaced by an equivalent standard LIV. That does lead to lower quality PGAT fields. Bad for the fans. LIV is the bad guy.

 

[Mel Smooth]

No, I didnt say what you are saying I said. I refer to the tournaments with the world's best golfers. Other than the sporadic visitor from the PGAT or co-sanctioned events, DPWT events are not weakened with Saudi players excluded. They wouldnt be there anyway. Saudi players being there elevates DPWT tournaments somewhat. It is a second division, and neither here nor there on the LIV issue. But having the Saudis play in the DPWT harms the PGAT. And that is a problem. If more golfers cleave, thinking a bit of LIV and a bit of DPWT is a plan, then the PGAT is harmed, and not replaced by an equivalent standard LIV. That does lead to lower quality PGAT fields. Bad for the fans. LIV is the bad guy.

I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......

 

[Ian_George]

I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......

 

[Mel Smooth]

Great response, no doubt you'll edit your post to add more depth to it shortly.

 

[Swango1980]

I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......

After 444 pages and 8,865 posts, I doubt anyone has missed your point.

 

[Ian_George]

Great response ...

Thanks.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Thanks. I can't help being a complete idiot.

Agreed


(I know, it's pathetic isn't it?)

 

[BrianM]

Surely you can do better than that Foxy……

 

[Backsticks]

I think you've missed my point.

This weekend there are a few players who will tee it up in the DPWTC that are LIV players. Players that have earned the right to be their by their performances on the DPW Tour - I'm not talking about LIV players gatecrashing events that they ordinarily wouldn't play on because they can't play on the PGAT.

Those players being there in Dubai takes nothing away from the event - if anything it adds a little bit of interest because they have competed on a rival tour (remember you said rivalry was a good thing right?)

So why can't this situation exist on the PGA Tour, and if it did, would the PGA Tour be better or poorer for it - you've already said not having these players compete regularly is bad for the PGA Tour, so you've answered that question. If the PGA Tour hadn't banned everybody, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of those LIV players would have continued to contribute to the PGA Tour, and keep the rivalry and level of comepetition that you quite rightly feel is so important.
Obviously, you feel that this situation has been caused by LIV - even though they set their schedue up, and endeavoured to avoid any conflict from the get go - and even now, they are seeking to overturn that position by having to go through a legal process against the PGA tour, which has been met by counter action from the PGA Tour to further distance any possibility of a resolution.
From the PGAT's position, what are they hoping to gain from that?
Surely the events on the DPWT have shown that LIV players can compete and contribute to other tours without too much drama - apart from the kind of comments you get from Horschel etc, surely it shows that there's ansolutelhy no legitimate reason to compropmise the legacy of the greatest golfing (arguably greatest one of sporting event) there is - The Ryder Cup.

And what happens if the DPWT lose their court case in February - what's the scenario? Well it could be that all those ostracized PGA Tour players see an opportunity to do exactly what you and the PGA Tour fear the most - abandon that tour and jump over to Europe, where they will drive up the OWGR ratings, drive up the interest, drive up the sponsorship investment, and drive up the Prize funds to rival those on the PGAT, and if that happens, the PGA tour is in trouble.

Jay is taking on a huge gamble, if it pays off, he ends up with something slightly worse than he had two years ago, if it doesn't, well......

The world tour is irrelevant in itself to the LIV debate, other than as access to other tournaments which is harmful to the pgat.
But the same does not apply to the pgat. Of course having the 15 or so LIV players that are in the upper rank of world golfers would improve the field of A PGAT event. But letting them into pgat tour events would be short sighted. It would then appeal to more pgat player to go LIV. And every LIV tournament they play, would be a pgat event they would not play. So the PGAT would lose quality of field.
No amount of spin from LIVians will distract from this key point. The players know it, LIV knows it, the PGAT knows it, the media knows it, and fans know it. It seems LIV thinks people are stupid, but nobody is buying their line on this no matter how often they repeat it.
In short, the PGAT is not going to let them play : it would be winning that battle of having a better field for one tourny, but ensuring loss of the war for quality of fields in the future.

 

[AussieKB]

So the PGA pushing for the Players Tournament to become the 5th Major and then not allowing some the best players play hurts that....
is that like cut off your nose to spite your face ?

 

[AussieKB]

The wife is watching the golf from Dubai, I said to her that according to Rory she should watch the PGAT as that is more important, and can earn a player more points.

She still cannot understand that watching better golfers in Dubai is the wrong choice....can someone help me out here please.

 

[Mel Smooth]

The world tour is irrelevant in itself to the LIV debate, other than as access to other tournaments which is harmful to the pgat.
But the same does not apply to the pgat. Of course having the 15 or so LIV players that are in the upper rank of world golfers would improve the field of A PGAT event. But letting them into pgat tour events would be short sighted. It would then appeal to more pgat player to go LIV. And every LIV tournament they play, would be a pgat event they would not play. So the PGAT would lose quality of field.
No amount of spin from LIVians will distract from this key point. The players know it, LIV knows it, the PGAT knows it, the media knows it, and fans know it. It seems LIV thinks people are stupid, but nobody is buying their line on this no matter how often they repeat it.
In short, the PGAT is not going to let them play : it would be winning that battle of having a better field for one tourny, but ensuring loss of the war for quality of fields in the future.

But they've lost quality of field from EVERY SINGLE event they hold, rather than a handful - they didn't need to - The DPWT events where LIV players are still taking part have better quality of fields in them - it's a fact. There is more interest in golf because of the existence of LIV - it's a fact. Why not capitalize on that interest by having those players involved in more tours?


Why is it OK for the PGA Tour to feel they have the right to host the premier golfing event of the week, practically week in, week out? They don't, any tour has the right to challenge that position, if that means weakening a few events then the PGA Tour has to deal/accept that, because every other tour around the world has played 2nd fiddle to the PGA Tour for years.
Indeed, the PGAT have actually weakened some of their own events by introducing the elevated status prize money - they've done to themselves, exactly what they (and you) are saying LIV should not do. They've incentivized players to pick and choose where and when they show up - to the detriment of all those events that aren't selected.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

The wife is watching the golf from Dubai, I said to her that according to Rory she should watch the PGAT as that is more important, and can earn a player more points.

She still cannot understand that watching better golfers in Dubai is the wrong choice....can someone help me out here please.

I presume you tell her not to watch any LiV then? Oh, there isn’t any on.

Looks like the PGA tour and Rory are living rent free.