D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
LIV Golf
- Thread starter MarkT
- Start date
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
You think they have stopped ?
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
So Cam Smiths Open Win and Players win was a one off ?
And Cam Smiths OWGR ranking declines now because ???
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Because he chose to take the guaranteed money and join a tour that doesn't meet the qualifying criteria to gain OWGR points, just the same as if he'd left the PGA tour and decided to only play monthly medals at your club. He'd still be one of the best golfers in the world but wouldn't be earning OWGR points and would be falling down the rankings. Even Mel Smooth, who appears to be one of LIVs biggest supporters, has admitted that they don't meet the criteria. Smith has made his choice and that's entirely his decision, as have all the other golfers that have joined the tour. They have all joined a tour that doesn't meet the requirements to be awarded points. Does that call into question the legitimacy of the OWGR? Probably not immediately, but in the longer term then yes it does as despite all the arguments LIV do have some of the best golfers playing on their tour. A solution needs to be found if the OWGR is to remain relevant and remain as the "Official" rankings as without the inclusion of players such as Smith, DJ, Bryson, Koepka etc they can't claim to be ranking the best players in the world.
Simply having more golfers, even if the mix or proportions are similar, is a big difference though.
There is a big step up in the value of a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30 (pre migration), rather than about 5.
DJ and Cam Smith are great, really top notch, no question. But two of that level doesnt bring an LIV tournament close to a PGat one with 10 or 15 of that level. They have to beat a lot of good players to win. DJ and Cs only have to beat a couple of their peers.
Unlikely. But still true that to date, they utterly failed to reach their goal of a critical mass of top rankers to give credibility to the level of competition.
It declines because the system is flawed, and, because he has retired from serious competitive golf. A modern day Jones, walking away at the peak, engaging only in leisurely golf.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
I've posted the link to this before on here, but this website provides a much, much more concise and in depth collection of data on proffesional golfers. It existed before LIV started of course, and infact, the OWGR have moved closer to their method of ranking players in the changes that took place in August of this year.
People will just start using these sources of information to rank players rather than the OWGR - of course the keyholders to the majors might not, but that will diminish the legitamacy of the OWGR when the rankings become strikingly different due to the lack of inclusion in their system.
Interestingly - Cam Smith is lower in these rankings than he is in the OWGR, which given his form since his LIV debut, probably makes sense.
https://datagolf.com/datagolf-rankings
Beezerk
Money List Winner
I’d disagree, I’m actually surprised how many top name golfers they’ve got in such a small space of time. I fully expected Mickleson and the other older fellas to shift over then maybe some big names in the next year or two, not DJ, Bryson, Cam Smith, Brooks etc all within a few months ?
Mel Smooth
Hacker
I must admit, when I'm watching LIV, the coverage seems to show shots from plenty of top players pretty consistently, and given this is a Beta year for them, I'd say they've done pretty well in terms of recruiting some quality players. What they have also done is add some big names who will carry a lot of interest as the team element comes into play, and the franchises develop. Bubba, Bryson, DJ, Poults, Westwood etc.. These guys will help draw in the corporate interest due to their legacy in the game - they weren't just brought in for their comparable golfing ability with the current crop of golfers.
BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
Serious question, do you actually watch much of the PGAT? Because there are nearly 50 tournaments it has always had several tiers. I struggle with why people can't just understand the models are different.
It's easy to do as you just have done and cherry pick from a top tier event "a win if there are 20+ of the worlds top 30" - just as it would be easy for someone to cherry pick a non top tier event, like perhaps this week where there are no players in the top 40. I just don't see the point in it.
The PGAT will vary each week, the liv will likely stay pretty similar. There are just different. ?
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
Actually the point I was trying to make.
So if Cam Smith, Dustin Johnson, Brooks K and BDC all fall down to outside the top 100 in OWGR they cease to be some of the best golfers in the world ?
NO of course not, nobody with any brief understanding of pro golf would say that.
Even Rory said the below
“I certainly would want the best players in the world ranked accordingly,I think if Dustin Johnson is somewhere around 100th in the world then it's not an accurate reflection of where he is in the game.”
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
The OWGR decision is huge.
If Liv get OWGR I think we will see a flurry of some of the top 30 golfers move across.
The lack of OWGR is defo a deterrent right now for any that are considering it.
Swango1980
Well-known member
If a golfer is out injured for a long time, they can drop down the rankings and one could argue the rankings are therefore not accurate. DJ took time out in 2014 (probably forced), so I suspect his ranking slipped then.
There will always be arguments as to how accurate any ranking system is. The LIV golfers would have been well aware that, at least in the short and medium term, they were walking away from ranking events. It is clearly much more difficult to accommodate LIV, as the LIV players and other tour players are operating under a completely different set of goalposts. Not just in terms of tournament format, but also the quality of fields they play against. We all know that several LIV golfers were excellent golfers when they joined LIV. However, it is difficult to tell if they are still playing with the same form when playing LIV events. Decent results could simply be because the other limited golfers in the field are not good enough, and becoming stagnant (i.e. not constantly refreshed by many up and coming form players). For example, Cameron Smith was 2nd in the world when he joined LIV (I think). In 6 months time, would some consider him to still be 2nd best? What LIV results would he need to prove that? Even with good results, perhaps if he played on the regular PGA Tour for the same period of time, it would actually show a big drop in form when up against a greater amount of players, and better players. To some but a lesser extent, the opposite could happen. Maybe his LIV events were not great. But, had he played in 4 rounds (so consistency is better rewarded) and more PGA events, his best results could actually be better than LIV, and actually show his form is better than he could show on LIV.
So, even for those that demand LIV get ranking points, there has to at least be qualification to keep the field fresh. After that, the complicated part will be how to fairly apply ranking points so you are not favouring one tour over another. I'm not sure if there is that argument, even when comparing PGA Tour, DP World Tour, etc. but at least they are comparable on many more levels.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
If the OWGR is considered to be inaccurate it must be understood that it's not OWGR's fault that certain players have moved to play golf that doesn't attract ranking points due to that brand of golf not fulfilling the criteria laid down in order to attract said points. The position would be the same if these players had retired.
Thus, the OWGR is accurate.
Thus, the OWGR is accurate.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
It''s accurate at measuring players that fit their criteria, that's all. In it's current form, it's obsolete for ranking proffesional golfers. If the powers that be want to use it to control who gains entry to Majors, regardless of ability, then it's absolutely perfect ;-)
D
Deleted member 1418
Guest
Let's face it there's a case for arguing about half a dozen more or less had, hence taking the Saudi wonga!!!!!
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
So who's fault is it..?
D
Deleted member 21445
Guest
Phil v Cam stands out #matchplay
Mel Smooth
Hacker
The combination of players being banned from the PGA Tour and the inability of LIV to cement ranking has exposed the failings of the OWGR.
I've posted earlier, there are alternatives that rank all players - the OWGR is fast becoming a tool to discredit LIV, rather than rank players.
