LIV Golf

[Swango1980]

So what was the qualifying process for the recent event in Thailand? Or the one previously in the US and indeed the one coming up in Saudi Arabia ?

Can someone from another tour qualify for the upcoming event on a Monday qualifying event ? Or via their position in the rankings ? Or via a recent high position in an event ?

But there are still so many areas that need to be fulfilled before points are awarded and everyone knows that - well apart from Norman and BDC who appear to believe that the events already fulfil what’s needed

But when it comes to ranking points you would have hoped or expected the CEO ( Greg Norman ) to have it all sorted before the events started so that the players knew exactly where they stood - it’s the same with the bans from other tours. But GN clearly didn’t think everything through

Most of the main players will continue to play majors for a good period anyway - and when they do play majors that then gives them chances for ranking points and further exemptions

I suspect qualifying is something like this:

There are 3 spots up for grabs, available for a specific group of golfers. That group of golfers enter into a tournament of Sudoku or Poker or something else. The top 3 players in whatever type of game they play qualify for LIV. Due to this qualification criteria, Greg Norman has now ticked the qualification box, and demands World Ranking Points

 

[Mel Smooth]

So what was the qualifying process for the recent event in Thailand? Or the one previously in the US and indeed the one coming up in Saudi Arabia ?

Can someone from another tour qualify for the upcoming event on a Monday qualifying event ? Or via their position in the rankings ? Or via a recent high position in an event ?

But there are still so many areas that need to be fulfilled before points are awarded and everyone knows that - well apart from Norman and BDC who appear to believe that the events already fulfil what’s needed

But when it comes to ranking points you would have hoped or expected the CEO ( Greg Norman ) to have it all sorted before the events started so that the players knew exactly where they stood - it’s the same with the bans from other tours. But GN clearly didn’t think everything through

Most of the main players will continue to play majors for a good period anyway - and when they do play majors that then gives them chances for ranking points and further exemptions

Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.

 

[Slab]

Assuming there’s no ban on entry to Majors for liv players who qualify, the OWGR points have to be sorted out before April or it just gets real messy
Let’s say Smith (or a.n other) wins The Open in 2025, he’d get 100 ORGR points plus lets say he picks up a few more points at the other Majors. That’s then divided by number of events in last two years (that’s 8, just the majors since liv tour doesn’t qualify as an event)

That’ll give him (roughly) an OWGR ranking of 12 and maybe as much as 20 and he’d sit top of the OWGR tree for quite some time without playing any other recognised events
There’s probably a minimum number of events to be played within the points formula to prevent the above scenario happening but that in itself just means Smith (or a.n other) liv player could win all the Majors in 2025 and not even be listed at all in the world rankings (who’d want to be sitting as owgr No1 in that scenario? Biggest sporting bridesmaid in history)

One way or t'other it'll get sorted out

 

[ColchesterFC]

Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.

So, ignoring all the other reasons for not awarding points, you acknowledge that there is currently no qualification process for the LIV tour and therefore they don't currently meet the criteria for OWGR points to be awarded.

 

[Swango1980]

It strikes me that, if Greg Norman and those associated with LIV feel hard done by and alienated by the golfing world, for example in relation to World Ranking Points, they only have themselves to blame. It might be down to one of the worst business plans of all time.

It is clear that LIV tried to change as many things as they could for LIV to make it different, and they tried to invite as many of the biggest golfing stars to give it credibility, and offering them huge signing on bonuses to tempt as many of them as possible. Sure, getting some of the biggest golf stars is nice, and will certainly attract viewers. Problem is, the way they've gone about it, they've manage to alienate even more of the worlds best golfing stars. They could have tipped the balance in their favour if most of the worlds best golfers went to LIV. But, as that is not the case, there is a nett negative feeling towards LIV rather than positive.

If they genuinely wanted to create a sustained golf tour, with a heap more credibility, why didn't they set up a format that would meet the criteria for World Ranking Points? They could have refined things as much as possible around that to make things different, but ensure that they ticked all the boxes for those points. They could have set up qualification criteria, rather than just picking and choosing players based on how big they think that player is. For example, they could have started by saying that qualification is set via the World Rankings, and maybe have some other spots for the top golfer in each continent. The prize money would be massive as it is now (maybe more, if they are not throwing money for signing on bonuses). Sure, maybe many of the top golfers would initially say no, but you just offer the spots to the next guy in the rankings. Clearly, they'd get themselves a full field as many would have been tempted by the money.

They'd have then had a tour, that met the criteria for Ranking Points, and would still tempt many top golfers. It would have been much more difficult for the PGA to fight this I suspect, as it would remove many of their arguments against LIV

 

[Swango1980]

Assuming there’s no ban on entry to Majors for liv players who qualify, the OWGR points have to be sorted out before April or it just gets real messy
Let’s say Smith (or a.n other) wins The Open in 2025, he’d get 100 ORGR points plus lets say he picks up a few more points at the other Majors. That’s then divided by number of events in last two years (that’s 8, just the majors since liv tour doesn’t qualify as an event)

That’ll give him (roughly) an OWGR ranking of 12 and maybe as much as 20 and he’d sit top of the OWGR tree for quite some time without playing any other recognised events
There’s probably a minimum number of events to be played within the points formula to prevent the above scenario happening but that in itself just means Smith (or a.n other) liv player could win all the Majors in 2025 and not even be listed at all in the world rankings (who’d want to be sitting as owgr No1 in that scenario? Biggest sporting bridesmaid in history)

One way or t'other it'll get sorted out

The minimum divisor is 40

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil, you know full well that there’s a qualification process into LIV as of next year.

So there was nothing for the current events - so it was correct when someone said they are closed events ?

And the qualification “process” that is supposed to be in play next year still has plenty of holes and issues and still not really been confirmed or official

3 or 4 spots is it for the whole year via a “promotion” tournament and one spot via Asian International money list
Still no Monday qualifying
Players are still “invited” and put on contract so will not be “relegated”
And many of the players “exempt”

 

[Slab]

The minimum divisor is 40

I figured there would be, so scenario 2 really cant be allowed to (potentially) happen. They really can't have a liv golfer picking up a couple of wins & runner ups in Majors and Mr pgat/et who didn't win any sitting as world No1

 

[Swango1980]

I figured there would be, so scenario 2 really cant be allowed to (potentially) happen. They really can't have a liv golfer picking up a couple of wins & runner ups in Majors and Mr pgat/et who didn't win any sitting as world No1

Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks win a major in the future, fair play to them. But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour (to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"

 

[evemccc]

Indeed, it seems a few LIV fans have completely missed the context of my original post, and jumped on the defensive.

At no point did I say he WAS a flash in the pan, and that he would not have / will go on to achieve great things. I didn't deny what he has achieved in recent times. The very definition of a flash in the pan is someone who goes through an amazing purple patch, and then achieves significantly less thereafter. So quoting his wins to date is irrelevant to the discussion, all it does is define the "flash" part of his career, if it were to turn out that way.

My point was that nobody knows how he will perform in the future. Once he has a dip in form, will it just be that and he will be able to get back to how he has performed recently. Or, will he never regain that level? Therefore, from my own point of view (and my original post was explaining my point of view on the entertainment value of the current LIV players), Smith is still not a major draw for me. He is just another player who has had a great year. Same could be said for Scheffler, great year but will he continue that into the future? If I could choose to have them in a tournament I am watching or not, then I'd still put them in it as they are clearly playing well. But, if they were not there, I just wouldn't be bothered. If they had another 5 or so years of sustained high level golf, then maybe I'd think differently.

I like to see Rory play, but it is also good to see Thomas, Spieth and Rahm (I didn't really like Thomas or Spieth several years ago, but they have sort of been up there for a long enough time that it is good to see them compete, even if I don't necessarily want them to win)

Personally, I would put Cam Smith’s record in big events above Justin Thomas - and for me, in terms of the eye-test, he has a higher ceiling than Thomas — and is immeasurably more appealing

We’re all welcome to our own opinions, but I wonder if you think Morikawa is also a flash in the pan? He failed to win on the PGA Tour this year, and Lucas Herbert, Luke List, Ryan Brehm, Chad Ramey, Trey Mullinax and Chez Reavie all did…

Cameron Smith won his first LIV event in which many recent Major winners all played…he didn’t beat nobodies…the field in the PGA Tour changes each event, it’s not always a stacked field…something which Premier Golf League, LIV Golf, Rory all acknowledge—-hence the PGA Tours recent changes going forward

 

[Slab]

Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks win a major in the future, fair play to them. But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour (to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"

You're right a liv player picking up 'a' major isn't gonna spell the end for credibility of the owgr... but that's not the scenario I painted
The owgr system will need to cope with worst case scenario (i.e multiple wins and multiple runner ups in Majors by one liv player) who then isn't No1 in the owgr

Again I don't care if they get points or not I'm just saying what the owgr need to do to protect its credibility (ban/exclude them or sort it out)

 

[evemccc]

Why? There have been plenty of Major Winners who have sat well down the rankings. There have been Number 1's who have never won a major, including winners of PGA or European Order of Merit winners.

At the end of the day, if Cameron Smith, DJ or Brooks win a major in the future, fair play to them. But, they've still chosen to play golf in a "protected" arena where they no longer have to worry about playing well to guarantee their future on that tour (to the same extent as before), and they don't even have to play that well to earn great sums of money. That is fine, but they are no longer under the same pressure of making cuts and constantly playing to a high standard to compete against 150 golfers each week, golfers who have performed well enough in recent times to qualify for those events. Including young up and coming golfers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those associated with the PGA would rather see a winner come from a member of their tour. But I'm not sure we are in the position of saying "that can't be allowed to happen"

You realise that that concept is literally the same that the Premier Golf League came up with. That Rory stated he was open to it, that it had good ideas. That NLU heralded. Stalwarts of the contemporary golf establishment

You can legitimately criticise it - but it’s exactly what was heralded in 2019 by others, before and aside from LIV

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Personally, I would put Cam Smith’s record in big events above Justin Thomas - and for me, in terms of the eye-test, he has a higher ceiling than Thomas — and is immeasurably more appealing

We’re all welcome to our own opinions, but I wonder if you think Morikawa is also a flash in the pan? He failed to win on the PGA Tour this year, and Lucas Herbert, Luke List, Ryan Brehm, Chad Ramey, Trey Mullinax and Chez Reavie all did…

Cameron Smith won his first LIV event in which many recent Major winners all played…he didn’t beat nobodies…the field in the PGA Tour changes each event, it’s not always a stacked field…something which Premier Golf League, LIV Golf, Rory all acknowledge—-hence the PGA Tours recent changes going forward

Justin Thomas ? 2 majors , 1 Fed Ex , couple of WGCs in a total of 17 wins - also been leading money winner on tour 3 times ?!

And Colin Morikawa has also won two majors now plus 4 other comps - not bad for someone who only went Pro in 2019

 

[evemccc]

Justin Thomas ? 2 majors , 1 Fed Ex , couple of WGCs in a total of 17 wins - also been leading money winner on tour 3 times ?!

And Colin Morikawa has also won two majors now plus 4 other comps - not bad for someone who only went Pro in 2019

Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above?)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above?)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith

2 > 1

 

[Swango1980]

Yep…Morikawa could well be a flash in the pan (using the same logic as applied above?)…He didn’t win anything this year, to my memory didn’t pose much challenge in the Majors, and look at some of the names who did win on the PGA Tour


JT has won the worst major, twice — IMO has a worse major record than Cameron Smith

Indeed, Morikawa could also be a flash in the pan. And my personal feeling had he left to join LIV would have been similar to my opinion on Smith.

At no point was I trying to big up Morikawa compared to Smith.

 

[evemccc]

2 > 1

Not all PGA Tour wins are created equal

Not all major wins are created equal

EVERYBODY who is honest would acknowledge that the 150th Open at St Andrews was wanted more than the PGA Champ at for example Bethpage

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Not all PGA Tour wins are created equal

Not all major wins are created equal

EVERYBODY who is honest would acknowledge that the 150th Open at St Andrews was wanted more than the PGA Champ at for example Bethpage

Maybe is is more desirable. But at a much easier course.

 

[Swango1980]

You're right a liv player picking up 'a' major isn't gonna spell the end for credibility of the owgr... but that's not the scenario I painted
The owgr system will need to cope with worst case scenario (i.e multiple wins and multiple runner ups in Majors by one liv player) who then isn't No1 in the owgr

Again I don't care if they get points or not I'm just saying what the owgr need to do to protect its credibility (ban/exclude them or sort it out)

Again, why?

I don't really know much about other sports in terms of their ranking systems. But has Ronnie O'Sullivan not been well down in the snooker World Rankings for many years, despite many considering him to still he the best? And he has won the World Championships while not being World No.1. The reason being he chooses to play fewer events.

Have there not been examples in other sports where a player has been generally considered the best in that sport, yet not been the top of their rankings? These sports do not crumble, or the ranking points systems collapse. It is just how things work. People will always moan about how ranking points systems work anyway.

 

[Mel Smooth]

So, ignoring all the other reasons for not awarding points, you acknowledge that there is currently no qualification process for the LIV tour and therefore they don't currently meet the criteria for OWGR points to be awarded.

Currently, no. There will be though, and as I keep saying. It’s quite clear that LIV are prepared to modify their format to get points, so, it’s only a matter of time until they do. That’s assuming the OWGR don’t start blocking their application despite meeting their own criteria.

Incidentally - I read something yesterday that implied the OWGR had waived their responsibilities to act in the best interests of the company, as required by the companies act 2006 - but I’m certainly no business law expert, so couldn’t tell you if that’s the case, but adds an interesting dimension to the debate if it is.