LIV Golf

[Deleted member 15344]

Well, I honestly don't know who will pay - we're just assuming of course that the cost is going to be comparable to what people pay for Sky, but that's because we've been brainwashed into thinking that it's good value - it may be more, it may be less, it may even remain free - we just don't know at this stage.

If it stayed on You Tube forever, that would be fine with me - but I know there are peope out there that want to be able to switch on their television and find "LIV Golf", on their TV programme menu, rather than watching via You Tube. Obviously it will also accelerate the popularity of the series if it can be seen as more 'mainstream'

Time will tell I guess, but with 14 events, there isn't any value to the consumer in an expensive annual subscription, and there isn't great value in that deal for the broadcaster - essentially the money in LIV isn't just going to come from the TV deal, it will come from sponsors who will want maximum exposure (I've seen an 800million dollar team sponsorship mentioned this morning).

Guess we'll just have to see how it pans out - I'm expecting it will be behind a paywall next year but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.

When you only have such a small audience when you consider the size of the golf market then I’m not sure what mainstream media will pay any significant amount for - even for free it’s not attracting a big audience

And 800mil ? It’s coming down from the 2bn that was initially stated - I’ll be astounded if any non Saudi company pays 800mil for a “team” within an individual sport - there is zero value in it , minimal exposure and as with the Apple TV suggestion far too toxic right now

It’s a very much small area of the market right now and it’s not really growing , there are big social media marketing ploys to try and expand the audience but it doesn’t appear to be working , the idea of a global tour was good but then they focus 70% of the events in the US , add in the lack of ranking points which won’t be solved anytime soon , sparse crowds , so the only thing holding it up is the bottomless pit of Saudi money.

Big Telly deals and 800mil sponsership or buying teams is imo complete fantasy

 

[Jacko_G]

And yet here you are, constantly getting excited about the field in LIV.

Sounds like all you are doing is hugely spinning any fact to ensure you are pro LIV and anti PGA Tour. Even if it is the same fact, but interpreted in completely opposite ways depending on whether it is related to PGA or LIV.

Regarding your next post, where you mention being brainwashed by what we pay Sky. Another nonsense statement. People will pay what they want to pay. If it was too much, they generally wouldn't pay. Unless you think we are all brainwashed into paying what we do for a pint of milk, set of golf clubs, a car, a house or anything else we use our money for.

Excited?

Perhaps he just likes an alternative angle to his golf. One that is challenging the monopoly of the US ran tours.

Last two tournaments have been very good viewing and I'll continue to watch it. Indeed I watch it for players like Cam Smith and DJ. It's been good to see Westwood still producing form. I had hoped from more from BDC to get me "excited" but to date he hasn't performed. I like BDC - he's a draw for fans.

I genuinely couldn't care less about the US Tour - it's also awash with cash and sponsorship, they're worried due to Saudi backed cash which in reality will not hugely impact them. Yes they will and have lost a few players but overall they will remain the dominant Tour. It's the European Tour that is gonna be impacted on more as Liv grows. They missed a trick with DJ etc due to wanting to blow smoke up the backside of the PGA.

 

[Mel Smooth]

And yet here you are, constantly getting excited about the field in LIV.

Sounds like all you are doing is hugely spinning any fact to ensure you are pro LIV and anti PGA Tour. Even if it is the same fact, but interpreted in completely opposite ways depending on whether it is related to PGA or LIV.

Regarding your next post, where you mention being brainwashed by what we pay Sky. Another nonsense statement. People will pay what they want to pay. If it was too much, they generally wouldn't pay. Unless you think we are all brainwashed into paying what we do for a pint of milk, set of golf clubs, a car, a house or anything else we use our money for.

I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average - that's the point I'm making. Same applies to the DPWT - which are the events worth watching (as in I'd pay for), I'd say The Scottish Open, The Open, and Wentworth - the rest, I'd rather do something else than feel obliged to turn on my television and watch what I've already paid for - and that is where my brainwashing comment comes in. Sky have "dollied up" their product to make people believe that it's good value, when the reality is, if Sky didn't exist people wouldn't even care about watching some of the content that they sit infront of for hours on end. Would I have sat down and watched Danny Willet, Max Homa and a load more golfers I've never heard of yesterday? Not a chance, but some people will have done because they've paid for it, and they want value out of that subscription.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That man is single handedly undermining and selling off the European Tour. It's a shame how far he is prepared to go to please the US.

What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have

 

[Backsticks]

I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average.

Mel, would you list out your top five weaknesses/problems, with the LIV proposition as it is today ?

 

[doublebogey7]

Well, I honestly don't know who will pay - we're just assuming of course that the cost is going to be comparable to what people pay for Sky, but that's because we've been brainwashed into thinking that it's good value - it may be more, it may be less, it may even remain free - we just don't know at this stage.

If it stayed on You Tube forever, that would be fine with me - but I know there are peope out there that want to be able to switch on their television and find "LIV Golf", on their TV programme menu, rather than watching via You Tube. Obviously it will also accelerate the popularity of the series if it can be seen as more 'mainstream'

Time will tell I guess, but with 14 events, there isn't any value to the consumer in an expensive annual subscription, and there isn't great value in that deal for the broadcaster - essentially the money in LIV isn't just going to come from the TV deal, it will come from sponsors who will want maximum exposure (I've seen an 800million dollar team sponsorship mentioned this morning).

Guess we'll just have to see how it pans out - I'm expecting it will be behind a paywall next year but wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.

You are having a laugh, nobody is going to pay that to get exposure to 100,000 youtube followers. For comparison, Man Utd's shirt sponsorship is around the £50 Million mark each year and worldwide tv audiences average 68 million over 53 games.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm not anti PGA Tour at all, they have some great events and some great players, but a lot of their schedule is pretty bang average - that's the point I'm making. Same applies to the DPWT - which are the events worth watching (as in I'd pay for), I'd say The Scottish Open, The Open, and Wentworth - the rest, I'd rather do something else than feel obliged to turn on my television and watch what I've already paid for - and that is where my brainwashing comment comes in. Sky have "dollied up" their product to make people believe that it's good value, when the reality is, if Sky didn't exist people wouldn't even care about watching some of the content that they sit infront of for hours on end. Would I have sat down and watched Danny Willet, Max Homa and a load more golfers I've never heard of yesterday? Not a chance, but some people will have done because they've paid for it, and they want value out of that subscription.

So, what you are basically saying is Sky are doing an unbelievably good job at giving a great show of what is essentially a poor event / low quality field. So much so that many golf fans choose to give them money and watch what Sky are showing.

Bravo to Sky then. Sport is entertainment, and Sky are clearly providing good entertainment if they get the paying customers in.

I said before, if people actually purely focus on the golf, LIV does not have a better field than regular PGA tour events generally. It is also true that with events nearly every week on PGA, only the avid golf fans watch the smaller PGA Tour events, it is the largest events that get biggest viewing numbers. So, LIV is not going to attract many golf fans based on field quality. It also has all the other hurdles that have been talked in depth, before it isn't considered an exhibition. The only major thing going for it at the moment is that it is free

 

[Swango1980]

You are having a laugh, nobody is going to pay that to get exposure to 100,000 youtube followers. For comparison, Man Utd's shirt sponsorship is around the £50 Million mark each year and worldwide tv audiences average 68 million over 53 games.

I think he is definitely having a laugh. He has made so many bizarre comments, that it is difficult to take any statement he makes seriously to be fair. That is the problem when you cannot objectively see both the strengths and weaknesses in both sides of the debate.

I think Petronas pay Mercedes F1 $75 million in comparison.

 

[BubbaP]

What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have

I do have some sympathy for Pelley. Early on it would have been a big gamble to jump in with PIF, and not surprisingly he went with a perceived safer option.
It's the ban situation that he's open to criticism on IMO. He likely knew the tour doesn't have as solid a case as the PGAT does - it may still succeed, we'll have to wait.
It will keep coming up that he had an opportunity to have a number of formerly PGAT players as fairly regular players on DPWT instead, bringing in ranking points and sponsorship opportunities. He didn’t go that way and it's reasonable IMO for him to receive criticism on that.
Early on I did wonder if the plan was to say "I tried Jay, but the lawers overruled me", but actions at BMW seems to have dispelled that.

 

[Jacko_G]

What was OGrady doing as his predecessor then? All these big players left under his watch over the past 20/30 years - 2015 he arrived with tournaments struggling for sponsers and some being cancelled- this is all 40 years in the making when the top Europeans started to go to the US , it’s not a new thing under Pelley. So right now he needs to find ways to get some strength back in the ET - European Companies aren’t going to stump up the money needed so get a stronger alliance with the PGAT was done - what other choices do they have

Did O'Grady sell out to the US and agree to give the top 10 players direct access to the US??? Did he undervalue and undersell the Tour and actively seek to weaken it year on year???

You will always have a migration of players who want to further their careers but to actively allow the best 10 players to leave every year is financial suicide. At least let them do that off their own back and go through the Tour Schools not stamp their passports for them.

It will be very interesting to see where Pelley ends up next......

 

[Backsticks]

So, what you are basically saying is Sky are doing an unbelievably good job at giving a great show of what is essentially a poor event / low quality field. So much so that many golf fans choose to give them money and watch what Sky are showing.

Bravo to Sky then. Sport is entertainment, and Sky are clearly providing good entertainment if they get the paying customers in.

I said before, if people actually purely focus on the golf, LIV does not have a better field than regular PGA tour events generally. It is also true that with events nearly every week on PGA, only the avid golf fans watch the smaller PGA Tour events, it is the largest events that get biggest viewing numbers. So, LIV is not going to attract many golf fans based on field quality. It also has all the other hurdles that have been talked in depth, before it isn't considered an exhibition. The only major thing going for it at the moment is that it is free

LIV has without question, an inferior field to most pgat events. LIV has 5 top golfers, 20 middle rankers, and 30 filler. Even when not all turning out in force for the likes of Fedex, Memorial, Players, Arnie's place etc, pgat still has a good scatter of the top 30, and a big wedge of the worlds top 100.
Additionally, they simply have a bigger field. In the nature of golf, that makes a win more difficult, and harder earned.
Liv would have to both expand its field by 50, and, gain another 5-10 top golfers just to reach pgat standard. And it still wouldnt have the full pull of the upper tier pgat events.

 

[Swango1980]

LIV has without question, an inferior field to most pgat events. LIV has 5 top golfers, 20 middle rankers, and 30 filler. Even when not all turning out in force for the likes of Fedex, Memorial, Players, Arnie's place etc, pgat still has a good scatter of it top 30, and a big wedge of the worlds top 100.
Additionally, they simple have a bigger field. in tge nature of golf, that makes a win more difficult, and harder earned.
Liv would have to both expand its field by 50, and, gain another 5-10 top golfer just to reach pgat standard. And it still would have the full pull of the upper tier pgat events.

Agreed.

Furthermore, look at entertainment value for fans. Who cares if Cameron Smith wins a LIV event, or any other player? Really, what does it mean? Just more cash in his already large bank account. All the players in the LIV field are guaranteed to do well financially.

In comparison, look at how the PGA Tour event finished last night. Firstly, there are many in the field where a high placed finish can be life changing financially. That adds pressure to them, but nice to see if any of those players do well. Secondly, a win would be huge for most, not just in terms of money, but in tour exemptions you get for future events, and the huge boost in World Ranking points. Danny Willet goes from pretty much having a guaranteed win, then 2 or 3 minutes later, and 3 putts from 3foot, everything changes. Not nice for him or his supporters, but it is that type of pressure that makes elite sport what it is - captivating to viewers.

 

[Backsticks]

Mentioning Willett, I would have thought him LIV bait actually.

 

[BrianM]

What could the European Tour have done to stop players going to the US ?

Also not sure what Pellys nationality has to do with anything - people moved to the US a long time before he was in post

I’m all for hiring the right person for the job regardless of anything else, but the more decisions Pelley is making the more I think if we had a European person doing the job, someone who has a passion for the European tour, better decisions would of been made.
That’s why his nationality has everything to do with it.

 

[BrianM]

The European Tour has been playing second fiddle to the PGAT since I started watching golf some 50 years ago. Yes of course business can change to make a better product, but LiV has nothing to do with business (its political) and is certainly not a better product in its current form.

Business competition falls way behind fair & open sporting competition when it comes to my interest in sport and LiV is most definitely not providing that, as it does not have a clear path to entry. Nearly all football fans opposed the Super League proposals for that very reason, I just do not understand why there are some golf fans who can find a way to support this.

If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.

 

[Backsticks]

You make a good point. For fans, the money means nothing. Its the win or place that means all. Win a million, 10 million, or a hundred million. Its all the same to us. What matters is the strength of who they beat, the course, the event and its history or prestige. That all can evolve. But evolves according to the strength of the competition, and longevity as an event.

 

[Backsticks]

If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.

Is LIV not business in the way that advertising is a business. It is an investment in the credibility, acceptibility, and normalising of Saudi Arabia for a post-oil era?

 

[Jacko_G]

Agreed.

Furthermore, look at entertainment value for fans. Who cares if Cameron Smith wins a LIV event, or any other player? Really, what does it mean? Just more cash in his already large bank account. All the players in the LIV field are guaranteed to do well financially.

In comparison, look at how the PGA Tour event finished last night. Firstly, there are many in the field where a high placed finish can be life changing financially. That adds pressure to them, but nice to see if any of those players do well. Secondly, a win would be huge for most, not just in terms of money, but in tour exemptions you get for future events, and the huge boost in World Ranking points. Danny Willet goes from pretty much having a guaranteed win, then 2 or 3 minutes later, and 3 putts from 3foot, everything changes. Not nice for him or his supporters, but it is that type of pressure that makes elite sport what it is - captivating to viewers.

Hmmmm,

So the capitulation of Willet last night was entertaining because it was on the main Tour yet the capitulation of Westwood at the previous LIV Tournament wasn't??

I guess we all watch golf for different reasons and see entertainment differently. An exciting climax is always good as is watching someone who is in total control of his swing and ball aka Smith yesterday.

The perception that it's better because it was on the PGA is not one I quite grasp but each to their own. Quality golf is quality golf. I actually find myself migrating more to the LPGA Tour now for entertainment.

 

[doublebogey7]

If you don’t think it’s a business decision, then you clearly don’t work in business, people will be wanting money back somehow, but as a new business you have to speculate to accumulate and it could be a few years before you start seeing a return.

You can't really believe that surely, there has been no discernible business plan from the start, no sponsorship, no TV rights so pretty much nothing coming into the "business". This is most simply using sport as a way to make SA look like an acceptable place to do business and at the moment it is not even succeeding in that aim. I'll wager in five years time PIV will have given up on this venture and that DJ, BDC etc have pretty much disappeared from view as very wealthy men.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I’m all for hiring the right person for the job regardless of anything else, but the more decisions Pelley is making the more I think if we had a European person doing the job, someone who has a passion for the European tour, better decisions would of been made.
That’s why his nationality has everything to do with it.

Ok - in the heads up to 2015 when there was a European in charge this is what was happening to the European Tour

All the best players leaving
Tournaments being cancelled
Sponsers leaving

We used to have the likes of British Masters , Johnny Walker , Welsh Open , Matchplay

They are we’re gone by 2015 - under the leadership of a European

Pelly took over 2015

British Masters returned
Wales Open
Hero Open ( scotland )
Cazoo Masters ( England )

The sponsership and prize money has increased significantly over those 7 years and will continue to increase

Even the best PGA players are coming over to play in events on the ET

The Rolex series created

And Co sanctioned events with the PGAT for the likes of the Scottish Open having its strongest field ever

More events on mainland Europe

So what are these “better” decisions that a passionate European could have done that would have changed the fortunes of the ET to enable it to compete against the PGAT ?

Nothing is perfect but the biggest golf market is the US - it stands to reason that the tour there is going to be the biggest