LIV Golf

[Barking_Mad]

So it’s a no cut event.

Precedent set for LIV events then. That’s all I was trying to clear up. ?

It's one event out of how many in the entire tour season? How many cut/no cut events do LIV have?

 

[Mel Smooth]

It's one event out of how many in the entire tour season? How many cut/no cut events do LIV have?

Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to Exemptions from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to Exemptions from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)

I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve when you know exactly why LIV right now doesn’t have Ranking Points

Every single tour has exemptions for a very small amount of events

That’s single events getting exempt not the whole tour

Right now LIV events don’t fulfil a single criteria- and you know that , to try and muddy the waters bringing in single events that gain exemption doesn’t change anything

 

[Swango1980]

Well the Final LIV event is arguably no cut, although not in the traditional manner, however, you can't state that a fundamental requirement of awarding OWGR points is it has to be a no cut event, then give OWGR points at a no cut event, with out questioning the validity of that requirement, unless of course the PGA Tour think they should be entitled to Exemptions from certain factors for their events.... Now where have we heard the "E" word before....;-)

Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points? From my perspective the thought wouldn't even cross my mind. Why should they be given any points when many professional golfers had zero chance of competing in these events.

At the moment, LIV is pretty much in the same position as that, except it is all about the money. There seems to be a huge sense of entitlement to people who think LIV should just be awarded World Ranking Points. I think it I'd this sense of entitlement that could be the biggest reason LIV fails in the long run.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points? From my perspective the thought wouldn't even cross my mind. Why should they be given any points when many professional golfers had zero chance of competing in these events.

At the moment, LIV is pretty much in the same position as that, except it is all about the money. There seems to be a huge sense of entitlement to people who think LIV should just be awarded World Ranking Points. I think it I'd this sense of entitlement that could be the biggest reason LIV fails in the long run.

Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour.

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical

 

[Swango1980]

Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour.

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?

Exactly. Because LIV has money. So, should money buy World Ranking Points?

A whole host of reasons have been given why it seems ridiculous that LIV should be awarded ranking points as it stands. Clearly, you also don't understand the concept of an analogy.

I appreciate it that you love LIV. You adore the 54 hole format, you adore the team element and you adore that you don't have to put your hand in your pocket to watch it. That is all fine, completely personal preference. You also have views on how successful it could be going forward, with better and better players being attracted to it, whilst others think it will fail. All fine to, given we don't know how anything will turn out in the future, there are ways to back both points of view. Fine again.

However, when you start to mention the TOUR Championship, and comparing that to LIV in regards to World Ranking Points, you are really clutching at straws. My analogy was far more comparable to LIV in this regard than you trying to compare LIV and the TOUR Championship. It is a well known fact that the 30 players that play on the TOUR Championship qualified to get there. As a limited field, the governing body in charge of world ranking points need to specifically decide if World Ranking Points should be awarded. They have said yes, and I think it is incredibly likely they have done so knowing all players qualified for it, and that all professional golfers can get there if they wish to, as long as they play well enough. Such arguments by yourself make little sense, and it smells very much like you feel you have already lost the argument, but you are desperate for any claim you make to stick, so you just start throwing stuff out there.

If LIV continues to grow, and starts to become a generally accepted tour where all professional golfers have a chance to compete, if they can play well enough to qualify for it, then it should absolutely be considered for World Ranking Points. But, that is not what LIV is. It is just a bunch or random elite golfers who have offered their services, for huge sums of cash, to play. There was no proper qualifying criteria, except for probably a few token spots in which LIV have yet to fill with other big names. It is simply a string of exhibition golf competitions at the moment. Again, nothing wrong with that. If fans enjoy watching that, with the players they do have, brilliant for LIV. I used to watch snooker players on Big Break with Jim Davidson, but I didn't think they should be offered world ranking points for their performances on the show. However, it was still an entertaining show, so it still achieved what it wanted.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

Of course it’s all about the money, just as all professional sport is, including the PGA Tour.

While the notion of some of the best players in the World competing in the Swango Lincolnshire invitational paints quite an endearing picture, it’s absolutely nothing like LIV, is it?

You're right as the majority of LIV players are worse than Swango and wouldn't get on the Lincolnshire Invitational.......!!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Exactly. Because LIV has money. So, should money buy World Ranking Points?

A whole host of reasons have been given why it seems ridiculous that LIV should be awarded ranking points as it stands. Clearly, you also don't understand the concept of an analogy.

I appreciate it that you love LIV. You adore the 54 hole format, you adore the team element and you adore that you don't have to put your hand in your pocket to watch it. That is all fine, completely personal preference. You also have views on how successful it could be going forward, with better and better players being attracted to it, whilst others think it will fail. All fine to, given we don't know how anything will turn out in the future, there are ways to back both points of view. Fine again.

However, when you start to mention the TOUR Championship, and comparing that to LIV in regards to World Ranking Points, you are really clutching at straws. My analogy was far more comparable to LIV in this regard than you trying to compare LIV and the TOUR Championship. It is a well known fact that the 30 players that play on the TOUR Championship qualified to get there. As a limited field, the governing body in charge of world ranking points need to specifically decide if World Ranking Points should be awarded. They have said yes, and I think it is incredibly likely they have done so knowing all players qualified for it, and that all professional golfers can get there if they wish to, as long as they play well enough. Such arguments by yourself make little sense, and it smells very much like you feel you have already lost the argument, but you are desperate for any claim you make to stick, so you just start throwing stuff out there.

If LIV continues to grow, and starts to become a generally accepted tour where all professional golfers have a chance to compete, if they can play well enough to qualify for it, then it should absolutely be considered for World Ranking Points. But, that is not what LIV is. It is just a bunch or random elite golfers who have offered their services, for huge sums of cash, to play. There was no proper qualifying criteria, except for probably a few token spots in which LIV have yet to fill with other big names. It is simply a string of exhibition golf competitions at the moment. Again, nothing wrong with that. If fans enjoy watching that, with the players they do have, brilliant for LIV. I used to watch snooker players on Big Break with Jim Davidson, but I didn't think they should be offered world ranking points for their performances on the show. However, it was still an entertaining show, so it still achieved what it wanted.

 

[Backsticks]

Forget wealthy Saudian Arabians paying big bucks to start up a string of golf tournaments. Imagine it was me. Somehow, due to my wonderful personality and great relationship with some of the worlds best golfers, Brooks, Phil, Rory, Justin Thomas and Spieth all agreed to play in 14 events in my county of Lincolnshire. They played at different courses in the County and the rest of the field was made up of local club professionals.

All a bit of fun, and maybe it was done to drum up some sponsorship and gate receipts for charity.

Are you saying that these events should be given world ranking points?

They shouldnt get ranking points. But they will still all have to get entry to the majors. Which is easily done. They majors will just have a category : Top 10 players on the Swango Tour qualify unless already qualified by another channel.

 

[AussieKB]

@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical

Are you looking at both sides equally ?

 

[Mel Smooth]

@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical

As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour.
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Are you looking at both sides equally ?

I believe so.
The anti Liv brigade are less evangelical
The matters are there to be debated, but I’m getting complaints and not from the anti Liv peeps, from general members that it is too much

 

[PhilTheFragger]

As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour.
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?

Methinks you need to back off a bit

 

[Swango1980]

They shouldnt get ranking points. But they will still all have to get entry to the majors. Which is easily done. They majors will just have a category : Top 10 players on the Swango Tour qualify unless already qualified by another channel.

Perhaps. But it would have to be really carefully thought out. A handful of the players on LIV are still big names, who have shown they can compete with the best in recent times. However, the longer they no longer compete with the best on the PGA Tour, including all the up and coming youngsters over time, it could be tricky to gauge just how good these LIV players really are. Are they still one of the elite golfers in the world, or are they starting to do a Hunter Mahan and rapidly becoming relatively rubbish, after being right up there with the best for a period of time? Brooks might still look like he is a quality golfer, with top 5/10 finishes on LIV. However, if that continually gets him in Majors, yet he misses nearly all the cuts in the Majors, questions will be asked just how good the guy is.

Trying to put myself in the shoes of a professional golfer, and being in a position to make a professional decision for my career, the choice seems pretty simple at the moment. I could continue to compete in any of the established Tours, knowing that if I play well enough I could qualify for the biggest tournaments in golf. Or, I could sign up, if offered, to a completely separate tour knowing full well it does not yet offer any qualification into any of these big established events. So, if I stay on the established tours then the advantage of that is I get to play in all those established events, and if I was one of the elite, do financially well out of it over a long period of time (especially if I have many years at my peak). The disadvantage is that I need to qualify to keep my card, let alone get into the Majors, so any dip in form might jeopardise my position on the tour. Alternatively, I could join LIV. No longer on an established tour so I have no right to play in any of the established events, including Majors, unless somehow qualification criteria is changed. However, the advantage is that I get a huge sum of guaranteed money, and might even be happy with playing less golf. If I only have a year or 2 left as an elite golfer, or not convinced I could ever be good enough to be one of the best, or consistent enough to be a journeyman on the PGA, then LIV seems like a great choice.

There are pros and cons of signing up to LIV or not. But, if LIV players / supporters simply expect to benefit from all the cash, yet still have the red carpet rolled out for them to compete in all the best events on the established Tours, then it is incredibly arrogant. Basically they want all the advantages for joining LIV that their fellow professionals are not getting (whether the turn it down, or are never offered), and all the rights that PGA Tour players enjoy. You'll have PGA Tour players that are fighting hard to qualify for Majors, with many professionals struggling and maybe never getting there. Yet you could have LIV players who don't have to fight anywhere near as hard, and somehow get qualification solely through a handful of LIV performances, when probably more than 50% of the field is made up of relatively poor golfers, including has beens.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

As an admin Phil, you’re entitled to your opinion on the subject, and having an opinion on my views is perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s balanced. However, each of my ‘evangelical’ views on LIV, are blatantly countered by numerous posters debating ‘evangelically’ in favour of the PGA tour.
If you wish to pull me up, that’s fine, but I’m afraid you need to pull lots of other posters up as well. Or perhaps do it off the public side of the forum where you won’t be seen to be using your position as an admin, rather than a poster, to influence the direction of the discussion?

Public criticism of Moderaters is forbidden round here Mel?

 

[Blue in Munich]

@Mel Smooth
There comes a point when the continual forcing of one’s opinion down everyone’s throats crosses the line between opinion/debate to flaming.
You are getting close to crossing that line

We are a golf forum and LIV is a subject we need to talk about, but your almost evangelical stance is becoming problematical

Sorry Phil but that line was crossed some time ago.

Presumably there is some sort of counting system the mods have access to that will tell you who has how many posts in each thread? The percentage of posts from this poster in that thread should tell you the scale of the problem.

Perhaps we should run a sweep on it, proceeds to H4H?

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry Phil but that line was crossed some time ago.

Presumably there is some sort of counting system the mods have access to that will tell you who has how many posts in each thread? The percentage of posts from this poster in that thread should tell you the scale of the problem.

Perhaps we should run a sweep on it, proceeds to H4H?

Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Using the Search filter feature, I believe the poster has made 584 posts on this thread, or 10% of all contributions.

Does it count if they’ve not written the content of each post themselves? ?

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Don't know what the problem is, there's only half a dozen active poster's on this thread and now the football season has started they are all back on the footie thread and this is quietening off.