LIV Golf

[RRidges]

I believe most of this thread is unqualified speculation.
Unless anyone is on the board,committee or in meetings with the powers that be,I would be taking everything as speculation.

Then they should all be suitably qualified - as mine are.
It's dishonest otherwise!

 

[RRidges]

A pretty anti-LIV article from a 'serious' newspaper - 60+ Pulitzers and the paper that broke the Watergate scandal
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/08/09/liv-golf-injunction-fedex-cup-playoffs/

 

[BubbaP]

In the spirit of unqualified speculation ?, maybe the 3 guys trying to muscle back in on PGAT know they are not in the 48 next year ?

Okay being serious Gooch is ranked high enough to stay...

 

[RRidges]

Round 1 to PGA Tour! LIV Golfers lose their TRO case!
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/09/sports/golf/liv-pga-federal-court-ruling.html
This case only covers the 3 requesting an injunction to allow them to play in Play Off series.

The case covering the 11 has been scheduled as per this doc https://dknation.draftkings.com/202...overage-talor-gooch-jones-swafford-matt-jones

Oh and from a tweet referred to in the above reference... In testimony, lawyer for LIV players said that in some contracts a player's prize money is recouped against his advance. A noteworthy admission that LIV previously denied.

 

[Backsticks]

So does that mean that for LIV events, you dont actually 'win' any money, so may as well lose ?
Or is it a sort of indentured slavery, where you must win what you have been paid up front, however long that takes. The quicker you 'win' that sum back, the quicker you buy your freedom ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Seems a few of the LIV bots aren’t doing any updates this morning after the court case

Judge was very critical of LIV , was very clear that there is no damage to the players if they are banned and that PGA isn’t “monopolised” the sport and as she said if LIV claim they have 20% of the golf market how can PGA have the monopoly ?‍

Can see last being a bit of a green light moment for PGA and majors and ET to bring in the bans

And obviously the fact that the contract players aren’t playing for any prize money as such ??? so it’s pretty much an exhibition for them

Also the main court case may not start for 3 years

 

[Swango1980]

Can someone just clarify: Are LIV golfers not getting any prize money, until the total prize money increases beyond their sign on fee? Is that a fact now?

If true, it is clear evidence that LIV representatives lied through their teeth, as they were adamant this was NOT the case when reporters where asking the question a month or so ago. Furthermore, it really removed much of the competitive element entirely. Some on here argued that of course there was competition when they were competing for that sort of money. However, they are not really, if they've already payed up front, regardless of how they play. Some might feel they'll only ever play in 7 or so events, and will never win enough to exceed that sign on fee. Then you look at Phil Mickleson, how long is it going to take him to win more than $200 million in prize money? The way he is playing, and the time he has at playing at a high level (which has already past anyway), it is incredibly unlikely he'd ever win that amount, to start getting additional funds on top of that sign on fee. So, if the above is true, no wonder he is just hacking his way around the course every week.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Seems a few of the LIV bots aren’t doing any updates this morning after the court case

Judge was very critical of LIV , was very clear that there is no damage to the players if they are banned and that PGA isn’t “monopolised” the sport and as she said if LIV claim they have 20% of the golf market how can PGA have the monopoly ?‍

Can see last being a bit of a green light moment for PGA and majors and ET to bring in the bans

And obviously the fact that the contract players aren’t playing for any prize money as such ??? so it’s pretty much an exhibition for them

Also the main court case may not start for 3 years

There's a long way to go in the legal battles Phil, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I believe that the LIV lawyer said that in some instances the LIV players winnings are offset against their contracted fee's, byt according to Golfweek, this was denied afterwards by LIV, and it goes against the accounts I've seen from golfers on tour, who know plenty of the LIV players.

The bigger story in the news this morning is about Cam Smith in the Telegraph, if true, the PGA can ban who they like. It will not do them one ounce of good in the longterm.

 

[IanM]

Court held: "If you choose to jump ship for bundles of cash, you've jumped ship." Your choice.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There's a long way to go in the legal battles Phil, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I believe that the LIV lawyer said that in some instances the LIV players winnings are offset against their contracted fee's, byt according to Golfweek, this was denied afterwards by LIV, and it goes against the accounts I've seen from golfers on tour, who know plenty of the LIV players.

The bigger story in the news this morning is about Cam Smith in the Telegraph, if true, the PGA can ban who they like. It will not do them one ounce of good in the longterm.

There is a long messy way to go yet , I believe one of the 11 have already pulled out , but the LIV case was very poor yesterday

The contracts of the players were given to the courts hence why it came up about pay - it’s clear that there have been a lot of lies and fabrication from LIV , they can deny lots of things but not sure people will believe them right now

It’s a shame to see golf going through this at the moment , it’s not good for the sport and LIV need to stop pointing fingers at others and see that they have blame in it as well - it’s a shame Normans arrogance won’t allow that

and the Cam Smith is still the same rumours - they say he is joining after the Fed Ex but then Cam Smith says he can’t wait for the Presidents so that’s a bit of a middle and also Cam Percy back tracking

Cam Smith going will be their biggest high profile player because of his recent Open win - being an Aussie you can see why , but I don’t see it being Armageddon for the PGAT and if he does go then the PGAT will move on

 

[Backsticks]

I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'.

Golf is doing fine , and unaffected by this commercial contest for control of the entertainment branch.

Elite millionaire athletes in golf are in turmoil alright.

Its similar to the 'grow the game of golf' mantra from LIV. What they leave people with the illusion of with that statememt is that they mean golf in its totality. What they really mean is, the frankly pretty small business in a global context, the elite professional golf industry. They want and believe there is growth in that, and there probably is, beyond the established tours. But that has no consequence for us, the global population of recreational golfers.

 

[Mel Smooth]

I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'.

Golf is doing fine , and unaffected by this commercial contest for control of the entertainment branch.

Elite millionaire athletes in golf are in turmoil alright.

Its similar to the 'grow the game of golf' mantra from LIV. What they leave people with the illusion of with that statememt is that they mean golf in its totality. What they really mean is, the frankly pretty small business in a global context, the elite professional golf industry. They want and believe there is growth in that, and there probably is, beyond the established tours. But that has no consequence for us, the global population of recreational golfers.

Not sure I'd agree with the last point, if LIV can take top proffesional golfers and get them playing regular events across the continents, that has to have a positive knock on effect for golf in general. The series has already created global interest - and it looks like there will be 3 events in Oz, 1 x LIV event and 2 x Asian Tour events.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not sure I'd agree with the last point, if LIV can take top proffesional golfers and get them playing regular events across the continents, that has to have a positive knock on effect for golf in general. The series has already created global interest - and it looks like there will be 3 events in Oz, 1 x LIV event and 2 x Asian Tour events.

I agree that golf should be a global game and that there are fans all over the world of the sport

A global tour would be great for the sport and imo the tours should have joined together to find a way of getting events all over the world

But and it’s a big but

There have been Co sanction events all over the world - they haven’t worked. Even the WGC in China has poor viewing from outside US and Europe , spectator levels poor , the same when they went to Australia to try events , and also Japan , even in the Middle East the level of spectators is poor - those events only survive because of over boosted sponsership.

Unfortunately whilst the golf has world wide appeal it’s two biggest markets are US and Europe - for events to be successful and not be reliant on big deep pockets to make it sustainable you need those two markets and it’s hard to get people to watch events on the other side of the world.

For those events in Australia to work they need to be supported over there - it’s not worked in the past

 

[r0wly86]

golf in China is not a big thing, it was considered by the communist party to be a sport of the elite and anti-communist

Japan has a lot of golfers, but I don't know what the market is for golf tours of mostly foreign golfers, Japan can be quite insular, if Mastuyama was playing then I'm sure he would get a lot of support but not sure whether they would turn up for a load of Americans.

Middle East, mainly is a golfing destination, not a domestic market. Liverpoolphil is right about the markets though.

Golf markets in $.

USA - 86bn
Europe - 15bn
Australia - 420m

It's not even close the PGA is dominant because golf in the USA is so much bigger than anywhere else, 6 times bigger than the next biggest market, which funnily enough has the second biggest tour.

A true global game will not exist without a governing body that oversees all tours with the express remit to grow the game.

If, LIV survive long enough to the point that they then become a rival to the PGAT they will stop going to places like Australia and Middle East. They will concentrate mainly in USA with occasional European jaunts. They will want to become sustainable and playing tournaments in those other countries would cost them money.

 

[Beezerk]

golf in China is not a big thing, it was considered by the communist party to be a sport of the elite and anti-communist

Japan has a lot of golfers, but I don't know what the market is for golf tours of mostly foreign golfers, Japan can be quite insular, if Mastuyama was playing then I'm sure he would get a lot of support but not sure whether they would turn up for a load of Americans.

Middle East, mainly is a golfing destination, not a domestic market. Liverpoolphil is right about the markets though.

Golf markets in $.

USA - 86bn
Europe - 15bn
Australia - 420m

It's not even close the PGA is dominant because golf in the USA is so much bigger than anywhere else, 6 times bigger than the next biggest market, which funnily enough has the second biggest tour.

A true global game will not exist without a governing body that oversees all tours with the express remit to grow the game.

If, LIV survive long enough to the point that they then become a rival to the PGAT they will stop going to places like Australia and Middle East. They will concentrate mainly in USA with occasional European jaunts. They will want to become sustainable and playing tournaments in those other countries would cost them money.

You conveniently missed out South Korea, golf is massive there isn’t it? It’s like a conveyor belt of great (generally female) golfers coming from there.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You conveniently missed out South Korea, golf is massive there isn’t it? It’s like a conveyor belt of great (generally female) golfers coming from there.

Golf in South Korea is 4th biggest behind US , Europe and Japan - around $880mil

It’s massively popular on the ladies - second biggest market

Both it seems at the moment it seems with the US tours - JH Kim the latest to go and win

Not sure what LIV events are scheduled there and don’t know what South Korean golfers they have got or targeted but it’s certainly a huge market for golf

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Ok, Inadmit I cannot be bothered to read the previous pages, but is the anti LIV arguement because it’s a Saudi thing or because they wanted to have their own piece of the golf tour pie?
Dont the Saudis invest heavily in the LET, as well as other global sports (F1 for starters)?
I wouldn’t say PGA tour was that benevolent either, deliberately ignoring the European tour(again, heavily sponsored by Arabic money)

Perhaps they should all co exist and when one of them realises they need to change then compromise might happen.

 

[CountLippe]

Ok, Inadmit I cannot be bothered to read the previous pages, but is the anti LIV arguement because it’s a Saudi thing or because they wanted to have their own piece of the golf tour pie?
Dont the Saudis invest heavily in the LET, as well as other global sports (F1 for starters)?
I wouldn’t say PGA tour was that benevolent either, deliberately ignoring the European tour(again, heavily sponsored by Arabic money)

Perhaps they should all co exist and when one of them realises they need to change then compromise might happen.

Reasons I don't like it:
1. Sports washing.
2. Its a bit rubbish.

However, I'm not averse to the PGA tour getting a bloody nose and its interesting that its the South African and Australian golfers who seem most up for. Shame the PGA tour never picked up the phone to premier golf league.

 

[larmen]

I would separate 'Golf' in its total sense, from 'elite professional golf a sports entertainment'

Like wrestling. You have the sport where people are trying to win wearing red or blue spandex versus the show element of WWE where the result is ‘irrelevant’ and the storyline is the focus.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Can someone just clarify: Are LIV golfers not getting any prize money, until the total prize money increases beyond their sign on fee? Is that a fact now?

If true, it is clear evidence that LIV representatives lied through their teeth, as they were adamant this was NOT the case when reporters where asking the question a month or so ago. Furthermore, it really removed much of the competitive element entirely. Some on here argued that of course there was competition when they were competing for that sort of money. However, they are not really, if they've already payed up front, regardless of how they play. Some might feel they'll only ever play in 7 or so events, and will never win enough to exceed that sign on fee. Then you look at Phil Mickleson, how long is it going to take him to win more than $200 million in prize money? The way he is playing, and the time he has at playing at a high level (which has already past anyway), it is incredibly unlikely he'd ever win that amount, to start getting additional funds on top of that sign on fee. So, if the above is true, no wonder he is just hacking his way around the course every week.

Brooks K and other players emphatically said that was not true in one of the press conferences.