LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

He's fortunate that he ended up undecided rather than against LIV. If you're a journalist and you don't want your body parts to end up in several different carrier bags it's a good idea not to upset or annoy the Saudi regime.

Well that's maybe funny/macabre, but not really true. If golf commentators were seeing merit, from a pro golf angle, in the Saudi venture, there would be someone making the case for it. But there is not.
Someone would be supporting that golfers are underpaid. That 54 holes is a better format than 72. That LIV will spread the golfing gospel/quaran to new parts of the world. That this is the way to get lots of average Saudis into golf. That golf is a singles sports that needs to develop into a team one with franchises owned by sheik/oligarch/oilbaron/sportinvestmentvehiclebillionaires to really entertain the public. That the PGA Tour is an evil monopoly empire that needs to be toppled.
But NOBODY is supporting the case.

 

[Mel Smooth]

How can they work together when the models of both tours are so far apart ?‍

When one tour is trying to take away the best players and put on events at the same time as the other tours events -

GN was creating a rival tour and using a bottomless pit of money.

And the PGA tour wouldn’t be looking to “strengthen” - they would be looking to look after their own tour - and right now they have the ranking points , Ryder cup and majors in their corner - they also have the best players in the world bar the odd player. They are stronger

The best players in the world will follow the money, it was ever thus.

And was Norman trying to take away the best players? Most of the players have said they'd have been happy to still compete on the PGA Tour if allowed - obviously they'd attend less events, but something is better than nothing, right?
Greg Norman and/or LIV have said repeatedly that they wanted the series to co-exist with the tours, so if the players said they'd do it, and LIV said they can do it - what has stopped them?

 

[Ethan]

As LIV grows, and it will, Norman is a shrewd businessman, and as the players on the series commercial value inreases (not all of them obviously), then why would the majors not want those players at their events? Why would the USGA etc, not want the stars of LIV competing alongside and against the stars of the PGA tour - it actually adds to the interest - this thread and this forum is proof - even though most of you that comment are anti-LIV, you can't help but get involved in the debate. That interest directly translates into money from the event sponsors point of view, and money is what everybody wants so they can put on the best show possible.

The business models are currently incompatible. Charl Schwartzel took home more money for a glorified exhibition event over 54 holes at Centurion than the winners of any major or The Players. The last player took home a top 10 prize from a PGA Tour event. The PGA Tour can’t accommodate players who are paid tens of millions to join and loads of money to virtually unknown players for also ran places in small field events.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The best players in the world will follow the money, it was ever thus.

And was Norman trying to take away the best players? Most of the players have said they'd have been happy to still compete on the PGA Tour if allowed - obviously they'd attend less events, but something is better than nothing, right?
Greg Norman and/or LIV have said repeatedly that they wanted the series to co-exist with the tours, so if the players said they'd do it, and LIV said they can do it - what has stopped them?

GN only wants to do what benefits the tour he is running - why on earth would the PGA even contemplate working with him

“Something is better than nothing” ?‍

Can you really not see why the PGA tour wouldn’t work with him ?

LIV tour is an invite only with huge appearances fees and prize money that is unsustainable without a bottomless pit of money backed by an oil state - money that PGA can’t compete with

The PGA tour has a vast amount of sponsors they need to satisfy , do you really think they would say -“yeah sure you go away and play these lucrative events ( when PGA Tour events are happening) but it’s cool for you to pop back and play the rich events that we host as well - don’t worry the other players who haven’t been invited they won’t care about these players popping back when it suits them.

Yes Norman is trying to take the best players - that’s why he is paying people hundreds of millions

Can you really see no negative in a limited invite only tour ?

 

[BubbaP]

Thread maybe going round some familiar circles.... here's something I recently learned -
The US Open gave 10K 'prize money' to all those who missed the cut.
Perhaps an acknowledgement that not all players are millionaires and it costs a chunk just being there. What are the thoughts on that?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thread maybe going round some familiar circles.... here's something I recently learned -
The US Open gave 10K 'prize money' to all those who missed the cut.
Perhaps an acknowledgement that not all players are millionaires and it costs a chunk just being there. What are the thoughts on that?

Can’t see it being an issue providing it is sustainable

It’s fine to pay expenses etc and allow a living but maybe means tested in line with endorsements etc

 

[BubbaP]

Can’t see it being an issue providing it is sustainable

It’s fine to pay expenses etc and allow a living but maybe means tested in line with endorsements etc

Yeah I wondered about means testing, but them probably chances of that becoming a bit messy.

 

[Imurg]

I've got a feeling that those who miss the cut at all the Majors get something in the way of prize money and have for a while..
I could be making this up though...

 

[BubbaP]

One thing about this whole debacle is I have become more aware of golf tour related things I hadn't really thought about previously. Looking forward a few months (am sure the thread will be still going ?), and prompted by Cam Smith saying he's planning on talking the claret jug down under and may play the Oz Open & Oz PGA. Seems the two defending champions (some were skipped due to covid) are both currently involved with LIV.
Both tournaments are co-sanctioned with DP World, which suggests (on current understanding) one of them could play. Guess nearer the time decisions will be made.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Won't quote any because their are too many but I agree to have a really long term future iLiv will need to become sustainable.

I think PIF are obviously willing to take a hit to get it up and running recruiting the top players whatever the cost.

Annual Event Title Sponsorship & TV Rights will contribute to this but weirdly its the team concept that I think we all agree isn't working right now could be the answer by franchising out the teams with Adidas and Red Bull reportably willing to pay $1 billion per team.

I think there are 12 teams so potentially 12 billion ? That's a lot of Lula...

There is the possibility the model could become sustainable but as I have said in the past ITS not Greg Norman or Jay Monaghon who will decide all this it's the players that have the power in their hands.
If all the top players stay on the PGA Tour I think LIV will ultimately fizzle out, if they start to drift across then the PGA Tour starts to have a problem.

We won't really know how that looks till after the Fed Ex Tour Championship and then see who is announced for the Rich Harvest Farms Liv Event in Chicago on 16th September.

Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.

I fear until mid September this thread will just keep going round in circles as I don't think any major names will move (if they do) till they finish the current PGA Tour schedule and Tour Championship.

 

[Backsticks]

Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.

I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. LIV looks more like 100-0. I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Won't quote any because their are too many but I agree to have a really long term future iLiv will need to become sustainable.

I think PIF are obviously willing to take a hit to get it up and running recruiting the top players whatever the cost.

Annual Event Title Sponsorship & TV Rights will contribute to this but weirdly its the team concept that I think we all agree isn't working right now could be the answer by franchising out the teams with Adidas and Red Bull reportably willing to pay $1 billion per team.

I think there are 12 teams so potentially 12 billion ? That's a lot of Lula...

There is the possibility the model could become sustainable but as I have said in the past ITS not Greg Norman or Jay Monaghon who will decide all this it's the players that have the power in their hands.
If all the top players stay on the PGA Tour I think LIV will ultimately fizzle out, if they start to drift across then the PGA Tour starts to have a problem.

We won't really know how that looks till after the Fed Ex Tour Championship and then see who is announced for the Rich Harvest Farms Liv Event in Chicago on 16th September.

Liv is Golf's Brexit.
A leaver could never convince a remainer or vice versa and feelings ran high.

I fear until mid September this thread will just keep going round in circles as I don't think any major names will move (if they do) till they finish the current PGA Tour schedule and Tour Championship.

Have seen the idea banded around about franchise and the idea that a manufacturer will pay £1bn for a “franchise” team -

I just can’t see that working for a few reasons

1. Who is going to pay £1bn for a “golf team” - within a sport which isn’t team orientated

2. What do they actually get for £1bn - just the name ? Or do they get a bunch of players

3. What if they get players they don’t want - can they get rid ?

4. Been talk of Srixon/Adidas buying one - would that mean the players would have to use the franchise equipment ?

5. Say in 3 years time how do the teams then draft in players

It’s all workable within a team environment sport like cricket ( ipl ) but within golf ?‍

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Have seen the idea banded around about franchise and the idea that a manufacturer will pay £1bn for a “franchise” team -

I just can’t see that working for a few reasons

1. Who is going to pay £1bn for a “golf team” - within a sport which isn’t team orientated

2. What do they actually get for £1bn - just the name ? Or do they get a bunch of players

3. What if they get players they don’t want - can they get rid ?

4. Been talk of Srixon/Adidas buying one - would that mean the players would have to use the franchise equipment ?

5. Say in 3 years time how do the teams then draft in players

It’s all workable within a team environment sport like cricket ( ipl ) but within golf ?‍

Hey I don't have all the answers.
Just the pointing out the possibility that the model could become sustainable if you have the top players TV rights could be huge.

I will repeat again its in the top players hands.
Go to Liv and it can then become sustainable as sponsors will pour in, big TV Rights will be sold, franchising teams could happen etc etc.

All the top players stay on PGA Tour then none of that happens to the degree needed to support it.

 

[BubbaP]

I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. LIV looks more like 100-0. I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.

Well I've met one! Last weekend in the club championship. Massively pro LIV. Took me back really, I wasn't up for a debate as was playing golf.
No idea on the % but think it must be higher than zero. I've fallen guilty of reading comments below articles - have said before I was surprised how 'even' the 'sides' appeared state side. Million miles from scientific though!

 

[Mel Smooth]

I dont think the analogy is correct. Brexit was a 50-50 ish split. LIV looks more like 100-0. I hears somewhere in the last few days how the BBC has admitted that they followed a mistaken strategy for years on the climate 'debate' allowing platform to global warning deniers as if it were a debate. And have since changed their policy as it was ludicrous, misleading, and harmful. The only ones in favour of the Saudi tour are those pocketing, and its mouthpieces. It just doesnt have supporters, who, whether rightly or wrongly, believe it is a good thing for top flight professional golf. There were Leavers, but there are no LIVers really.

Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.

 

[Backsticks]

Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.

Reputable media. Not the wild west of manipulatable comments below articles, twitter, facebook. Even the fact the LIV has made no case itself, for itself. It rolls out platitudes like 'growing the game' which are saved from being meaningless only by indicating to us how bereft of sound justification LIV is. And that is very damning.

 

[RRidges]

Can I ask, where are you harvesting your perception of LIV golf from Backsticks? It's not 100-0 even on here, on what is probably a very traditionalist golf forum. If you go on Twitter, Facebook etc, based on the polls I've seen and the comments I've read, I'd say about 20 to 30% of people commenting are in favour of LIV.

I wouldn't take heed of any statistics relating to Twitter or Facebook!
Spam accounts are a pretty standard tactic in information wars, even to the extent that the actual number are holding up Elon Musk's purchase of the Twitter.
It/they would seem an obvious medium for bombardment by pro-LIV spam accounts, so a penetration of 20-30% would seem very low!

 

[HeftyHacker]

Reputable media. Not the wild west of manipulatable comments below articles, twitter, facebook. Even the fact the LIV has made no case itself, for itself. It rolls out platitudes like 'growing the game' which are saved from being meaningless only by indicating to us how bereft of sound justification LIV is. And that is very damning.

I dunno, of my usual playing group which is made up of 27 to 33 year old the consensus is mainly pro LIV at the moment. Most other people I've discussed it with at golf don't really care either way.

Tbh I've said before, I quite like the shotgun start, I quite like 54 holes element and the day being done in 5hrs or so and I like the fact I can pop it on YouTube and watch on the go. I especially like the fact I can stop watching, then go back and continue where I left off. However, I accept that it won't always be like this once the offer of a TV deal comes along.

Maybe, as a relative newcomer to the sport, and not the most avid watcher of the professional game, I'm not as ingrained with the traditional format and tours as much but if the PGA tour suddenly announced a series where the top 50 were to have 10 events a year in the format the LIV has taken I'd think it was a pretty good idea.

The money thing I'm not bothered about and I do find the constant commentating on it during coverage rather vulgar. If you're going to pay them that much then fine, but it doesn't need to be mentioned every 30 seconds.

Edit. Still think the team element is daft.

 

[Backsticks]

I wouldn't take heed of any statistics relating to Twitter or Facebook!
Spam accounts are a pretty standard tactic in information wars, even to the extent that the actual number are holding up Elon Musk's purchase of the Twitter.
It/they would seem an obvious medium for bombardment by pro-LIV spam accounts, so a penetration of 20-30% would seem very low!

Yes. I think any case of resorting to twitter or facebook for tge lack of mainstream media support is corroborative evidence that the thing smells. Moving in the world of climate change deniers, Trump won the election, and covid isnt real commentators for believers means the sane world has probably rejected it.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

I dont think the analogy is correct..

The analogy was how one will never convince the other as I mentioned in the post ?