LIV Golf

[Ethan]

Yes, it shows how they are really struggling to attract high level players. He ticks no box other then 'golfer'. Not an up and comer, not a current high ranker, not a major winner, not a Ryder cup hero, not a people favourite or 'character' (the likes of Beef would be a better low ranking recruit), not a regional spread, not a winner. Blandest of the bland. We can be certain he was on no original LIV hit list to defect.

Its the surest sign yet to me that the tide is turning toward PGAT coming out on top here.

CHIII is the definition of how good the PGA tour has been for players who will never trouble the top of the rankings. If he thinks that $42 million in career earnings, whatever endorsements on top and the comfortable lifestyle he has is a burden that unfairly reflects his value to the game, well I suspect many would disagree. Frankly, if I was the real decision maker at LIV Tour, I wouldn't want that sort of player.

 

[Oddsocks]

Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours. The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think it’s fair to say the defection of Stenson picking the money over the RC Captaincy has prob had the most negative reaction throughout this whole thing - it’s looking like a selection out of spite as opposed to anything else

The reaction on social media from Sweden is pretty damming of the player who they until very recently idolised

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/ryder-cup-captain-henrik-stenson-liv-golf/

and you would expect the social communications from LIV to at least get his nationality right

 

[BrianM]

Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours. The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.

Stop talking sense, it doesn’t fit with the agenda of the usual posters, there is good, bad and negative with all the tours but they don’t want to see that with their blinkers on.

 

[BrianM]

I think it’s fair to say the defection of Stenson picking the money over the RC Captaincy has prob had the most negative reaction throughout this whole thing - it’s looking like a selection out of spite as opposed to anything else

The reaction on social media from Sweden is pretty damming of the player who they until very recently idolised

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/ryder-cup-captain-henrik-stenson-liv-golf/

and you would expect the social communications from LIV to at least get his nationality right

View attachment 43554

The reaction from Sweden, a whole country is pretty damming, have a day off.
I’ve read loads of comments from Swedes / Scandinavians wishing him all the best, at least give a balanced response before posting.

 

[Ethan]

Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours. The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.

They don't spend 50% of their time away from home. The sorts of players LIV is looking for fly private around the country/world, get everything taken care for them, get appearance fees for overseas events, get corporate add-ons for domestic events and make more money by their mid-20s than most people make in a lifetime. Their wife/partner doesn't need to work, they have domestic staff if they want them, sometimes the families come along to events and luxuriate in the luxury hotels.

Even Charles Howell III can do that. He can retire right now, get a cushy position as Honorary Head Pro at some swanky country club near where he wants to live and settle back into his rich retirement. Maybe do some punditry, write a book.

 

[BrianM]

They don't spend 50% of their time away from home. The sorts of players LIV is looking for fly private around the country/world, get everything taken care for them, get appearance fees for overseas events, get corporate add-ons for domestic events and make more money by their mid-20s than most people make in a lifetime. Their wife/partner doesn't need to work, they have domestic staff if they want them, sometimes the families come along to events and luxuriate in the luxury hotels.

Even Charles Howell III can do that. He can retire right now, get a cushy position as Honorary Head Pro at some swanky country club near where he wants to live and settle back into his rich retirement. Maybe do some punditry, write a book.

Did Charles tell you that or are you just guessing, do you know his personal circumstances?

 

[Ethan]

Did Charles tell you that or are you just guessing, do you know his personal circumstances?

Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that.

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions.

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?

 

[BrianM]

Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that.

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions.

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?

Your guessing, making up stuff that you don’t know, what’s that bringing to the thread?
Unless you know peoples personal circumstances I don’t think you should be making assumptions.

 

[theoneandonly]

Chucky has earned $42m in PGA Tour money, and has some endorsements and other sponsorships on top. I reckon he is doing better than most of us, and I am not guessing about that.

The Honorary Head Pro (or similar) at a snazzy country club is a common vehicle for former Tour players that don't want to play Champions Tour, if he would even qualify for Champions.

Are you seriously making a rather tangential argument that CHIII needs the dough from LIV Tour?

You need to site sources for your information, legitimate ones with provenance that we can refer to. This came from the man at the top and
as an ex moderator you should be au fait with the forum rules.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Ok excluding the politics, the murdering, the name calling, hypocrisy allegations and so on, l look at it simply from a players work load perspective.

They will averagely spend 50% of their time away from home, flying here there and everywhere in order to compete on current non LIV tours. The average age of a player in their prime (let’s take rory/speith) both at an ages where they are having young families etc. they will miss 50% of their child’s younger years solely through work.

If you had the option to work less, earn the same or in some cases more and be available to spend time at sports days, parent evenings , and generally be a more involved husband and farther how many would actually knock it back.

In regards the “working less”

Is that what the players want to do or do they want to “cherry pick” the events

As example - I have no doubt they would be ok playing the LiV events plus the major tour events , WGCs , majors etc

So ultimately not about spending more time at home etc or playing less but playing the events that give them the best rewards possible

Right now there is talk of the players looking to play on the Asian Tour events as well - how does that fit in with the playing less etc

There will no doubt be players like Koepka who would love just to play the odd few events plus the majors and I’m guessing it’s because his wedge is bigger than others

 

[Oddsocks]

I think there are clearly divided opinions on what is a very political topic. I think based on that I’m going to continue lurking on this thread but not comment, it seems any conflicting opinion is like trying to put a forest fire out with petrol… it get heated!

In summary of my views please of offend

, I think LIV is here whether it’s for the good of the sport or not. The PGA has done a great job al be it with ZERO competition, but if LIV attracts a different audience and grows the sport further it has to be a great outcome. Golf has stagnated and viewing has become boring, they are trying something new to try and revive what is generally a boring TV sport. Have they got it right first time.. no, but at least they seem to be trying something different. It’s evolution and the sport needs to evolve to remain current as like it or not the traditionalists are dying off, it’s exactly the reason sports companies make golf gear and we done play in corded trouser and buttoned shirts.

Do we agree with the source of the funds, probably not but as I’ve commented before to accept sponsorship money for the other tours from the same sources is hypocrisy of the highest order. By the same token we all buy goods which no doubt have links whether it be fuel for the cars etc etc, so I find it impossible for us to sit in our ivory towers whiter than white.

Their country has an appalling history and if their investment in pro sports forces change via global acknowledgement and educations of its past then it has to be a positive. I was pretty oblivious to its history until it caused outrage when F1 went there, now golf and no doubt other sports if I did some digging.

My “personal” opinion is that the US tour found it perfectly acceptable to pillage every high profile player they wanted from Europe with a clear conscience and are now playing the victim when the favour is returned. I find it even more amazing that the euro tours have sided with the US tour given the damage it done to their “ brand “ as “ brand damage “ seems to be a big headline argument, to me it’s no different. Imagine being a character witness in court for the man who’s just burgled your house? The DP / euro tours had the perfect opportunity to have LIV host the big money events, have access to some high profile (past it or not) players for their events and the bottled it.

Enjoy the disagreeing

HighHorseSocks over and out.

 

[GB72]

Having given this all a bit more thought, I have reached a bit of a conclusion in my mind on how I feel about the whole issue between tours.

If the PGA, DP Tour, Ryder Cup Committee etc had kept this to one simple argument then I would be fully behind them. If the only line they took was simply one that they were totally against the actions and attitudes of Saudi and the idea of sportswashing and on that basis they fully condemn the Saudi regime and would not allow players on their tour who associate with and thus tacitly support the same then I would have no issue with 100% supporting that stance. That would, of course, mean that events, players etc would have to be very careful when selecting sponsors to ensure that their funding has not come from Saudi indirectly.

As soon as the debate moves away from that, it all become simply business to me and whatever happens, happens. Take away the main issues relating to politics and human rights, and the debate appears to be that a tour is throwing around money to atract the best golfers away from the exisiting tours, exactly what I see the PGA Tour having done in the past (that opinion may be right or wrong).

 

[Ethan]

Your guessing, making up stuff that you don’t know, what’s that bringing to the thread?
Unless you know peoples personal circumstances I don’t think you should be making assumptions.

I am making an assumption that you support LIV Golf but have no good arguments to make.

CH3 has earned $42.025 million in PGA Tour earning. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 is 173rd in the OWGR. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has played 16 PGA tour events this season, 1 top 10, 5 missed cuts. Other finishes average around 25th. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has has sponsorships from various club makers, but also consulting groups, private jet companies, Lexus, General Electric. Money was probably involved. Fact, not assumption.

I trust you will adopt the same snarky demand for proof from those making assumptions in favour of LIV Golf, and ask about personal relationships with Greg Norman.

 

[timd77]

My opinion, therefore no sourcing needed, is that a lot of the players going to LIV just want to win something. They know their time’s over on the main tours where the field is too competitive and they’re unlikely to win any tournaments, so they join a weaker, smaller field and increase their chances of winning. Add to that the obscene bundles of cash on offer, it’s a no brainer for them.

Obviously not all, the likes of DJ, Brookes and BDC are still relevant and competitive, no doubt about that. But certainly your Stensons, Poulters, Westwoods are over the hill, and the majority of the others being in the ‘never had it in the first place’ category.

 

[BrianM]

I am making an assumption that you support LIV Golf but have no good arguments to make.

CH3 has earned $42.025 million in PGA Tour earning. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 is 173rd in the OWGR. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has played 16 PGA tour events this season, 1 top 10, 5 missed cuts. Other finishes average around 25th. Fact, not assumption.
CH3 has has sponsorships from various club makers, but also consulting groups, private jet companies, Lexus, General Electric. Money was probably involved. Fact, not assumption.

I trust you will adopt the same snarky demand for proof from those making assumptions in favour of LIV Golf.

Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.

 

[sweaty sock]

To join in with the summing up then leaving.

LIV, just another golf tournament, with an average field. No different, in any way, funding or otherwise from PGA or DP event.

Both side of the argument from Norman and Monahan, right down to Mel and LiverpoolPhil, has now decended into finger pointing and name calling. Until this changes, nothing will progress.

Small ball into 4 inch hole, for money. How different can it be...

 

[Ethan]

Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.

Well, you adopted a bit of a tone that I didn't see addressed to others who have stated a range of views, supported by varying degrees of verifiable facts.

CHIII has long been discussed as an archetypal example of the middle of the pack (although sliding) journeyman who has managed to keep their card through mostly middle of the field finishes and has made a shedload of money. I don't see how he adds much to the LIV Tour brand. Do you disagree with that characterisation?

 

[Ethan]

Small ball into 4 inch hole, for money.

Are you sure?

 

[Backsticks]

Ethan, I’ve always tried to give reasoned debate from all angles, not just LIV, what Oddsocks said above pretty much sums it up for me.
I’m not for or against LIV.

I am probably against LIV. Mainly, I dont care who runs the tours. So if LIV ran the show, I would be fine. pGAT runs it, fine. Boris Johnson runs it , well, almost.

The key is having all the worlds golfers competing against each other. Thats why the pgat has worked. Could Saudi have done the same? Probably. If they had ALL the player, and not a subset, and not a closed shop. That it has those limitations is what makes it a show circus, not sport.
Add it the 54 holes, the utter garbage of teams in an individual sport, and the shotgun, and they harm not help their case.

So LIV is THE problem. Not because of what it is in itself in the main, but because it has caused a split at the top of golf. We, the golf followers are the losers. Two half tours is only a fraction as good as one full tour.