LIV Golf

[doublebogey7]

Never said he was struggling, I was pointing out that he'd spent 50 grand earlier this year to attend events, and not got a cent back. The 5 million is a gross figure, it will be taxable, and will incur huge outgoings.
I doubt he's set for life, let's put it that way.

Youy compared Hend to tube drivers earlier, I doubt whether any tube driver gets paid merely for wearing the uniform. This whole argument that LIV is good because it pays all players regardless of performance is just a nonsence. They are paying just 48 players, yes 48. The Euro Pro tour pays at least 60 per tournament from a prize pot of £50,000. There are tens of thousands of pro golfers around the world competeing for similar amounts, LIV have zero interest on those players and have no pr0posals to grow the game from the bottom up.

Additionally I don't hear any of the top players that LIV are trying to attract saying "lets take a small pay cut so those struggling at the bottom can be paid more", quiet the opposite in fact.

 

[GB72]

So your wife's contract didn't say that is she did the best job of the week, she got a million dollars, second best half a million and so on, and if she was below average, nothing? Wow.

Did she also get pension contributions based on the number of such week's work she did? No, me neither and I am contractor too. I make my own contributions. PGA Tour players have pension pots based on the number of cuts and prize money earned.

So not really the same at all.

Silly to suggest that not thinking that the LIV Tour is a refreshing evolution in golf means that anyone wants to see total stasis in the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour has evolved plenty over the years, and has done so in response to the LIV Tour.

Aside from the really unnecessary tone, those are fair points. The original point was made about expensese and accomodation and that is, I am sure, covered in your contracts as well. I totally agree, any other comparision between a professional golfer and a health and safety contractor is irrelevant.

In fairness, I did not start the comparison to being contractors, I just followed the analogy and the points put across on that basis. That said, my wife would not have entered into a contract that could result in no payment at the end of it.

Fair point on the pension but, again, it leaves the bottom with nothing. They have contributed to the event but do not get contributions towards the pension if they do not perform.

The analogy is irrelevant, I believe that those lower down the order should get a slice of the pie the same as anyone else. As I said earlier, I think LIV rewards them too much but I do think that they should be entitled to something to cover expeinses and living costs. As I have said before, I do not support LIV, I do not support the PGA, I believe that huge amount around golf at all levels needs tearing down and evolving but I also know that will never happen.

 

[Swango1980]

So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?



The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?

Although he may not be struggling, it is probably important to put things in context. It is not the same as you or I earning £5 million over the same period, and getting to enjoy the fruits of that money.

He is effectively his own business. After taxes are taken out of the equation, he'll need to cover costs for coaches, trainers, physios, travel, accommodation, caddies and whatever else he needs to cover. He is not a "top" player, so I'm sure he will naturally pay significantly less expenses that someone like Tiger, Rory or Bryson would pay. However, he'll want to invest well in all these sorts of services to give himself the best possible chance to stay in the tour.

It would be interesting to know the expenses of an elite level pro, a jorneyman pro (in the top tour) and a pro who yoyos back and forth between the top and lower level tours.

 

[doublebogey7]

Some of the things that are getting 'debated' are eye opening.... even being anti-LIV or pro-LIV or anywhere in between doesn't mean there can't be agreement around certain things that in the modern age seems antiquated.

Better conditions and treatment of caddies at Tournaments - only a good thing. It's not about how poorly they've been treated by the PGA Tour or where the money has come from to treat them better at LIV; it's about the fact they are finally in he conversation about how they should be treated better.

Financial reward for players missing the cut (or coming last) - just because you know the 'risks' doesn't make it right; there's enough money in the game to, at the very least, ensure an average weekly living wage for those that make the cut. Qualified from Q school? Congratulations - but you still to make the step up, finance yourself and make the cut enough times to not only keep your card but to pay all your living expenses. And you have other people depending on you etc. But even so, we expect you to come at your own expense and make up the numbers for the first 2 days so we can benefit from your presence. There's been enough cinderella stories to know that some professional golfers struggle to pay bills and need to borrow money to stay on the road. It shouldn't be hard either..... at the John Deere Classic the 'last' placed 69 got $15k or so; winner got $1.278m. In order to give the 80 or so cut participants $3,500* each, you'd need to take $280k away from the total receiving prize money or reduce everyone's purse (who got one) by just less than 4%. So the winnder gets $1.227m instead of $1.278m; 69th gets $14.4k instead of $15k. The 80 who missed the cut get $3.5k each - not enough to phone it in, but enough to at least survive. And if things are so tight for the not for profit organisation you can limit your liability - if at any point you earn in excess of $70,000 in the year you then no longer need the living wage payment.

Basically - there has to be some 'good' things we don't have to disagree on!

*arbitrary figure based on a minimum of 20 events to earn the living annual wage in USA (20 x $3.5k = $70k)

You are right it would be a good thing, but lets not pretend this is any reason LIV have moved into professional golf. The oppsite is actually true, they want to pay the very best players the greatest of rewards and have no thoughts for those below the top 48.

 

[Mel Smooth]

He isn't the target of LIV though is he? He's stop gap.
LIV wants the top players. So what happens to Morgan when he gets booted out for the big boys?
He goes back to the Australasian Tour, having to make cuts to get paid.
So you can't pretend LIV was set up for the betterment of the lesser players.

I'm not pretending anything, I said he dropped lucky - and he quite rightly took that chance.These guys will know full well they will have limited opportunities on the LIV series, but if they are given chance, have the right to take it.

What the LIV tour will do, is take the game across the continents, which in turn will lead to more interest and investment in those countries.

 

[GB72]

You are right it would be a good thing, but lets not pretend this is any reason LIV have moved into professional golf. The oppsite is actually true, they want to pay the very best players the greatest of rewards and have no thoughts for those below the top 48.

Totally agree and very fari point but this may trigger the need for other tours to adopt these things and so, whether you see LIV as good, bad or are indifferent, it may trigger improvements elsewhere by removing complacency brought about by lack of competition.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?

Tiger did

 

[Foxholer]

I'm not pretending anything, I said he dropped lucky - and he quite rightly took that chance.These guys will know full well they will have limited opportunities on the LIV series, but if they are given chance, have the right to take it.

What the LIV tour will do, is take the game across the continents, which in turn will lead to more interest and investment in those countries.

You must be getting pretty dizzy generating all this spin!

 

[Bdill93]

Tiger did

But hes the biggest name in golf for years. He has the earnings over time etc.

Now some guys who have been on tour for a few years can do the same.. I dont see that as bad!

 

[Foxholer]

Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.
...

So he's buying a farm? Or golf course?

...
Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?

Actually....Yes!

 

[Ethan]

Bryson has already stated a lot of his 125 million is going back into grass roots sport.

Would he have been able to do that without 'LIV?

We'll see when it starts. It will likely be done in a very tax-friendly way that costs him a lot less than the reported value.

The idea that BdC made this move with any intention other than to fill his own boots, though, is laughable.

 

[Mel Smooth]

We'll see when it starts. It will likely be done in a very tax-friendly way that costs him a lot less than the reported value.

The idea that BdC made this move with any intention other than to fill his own boots, though, is laughable.

Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.

 

[doublebogey7]

Totally agree and very fari point but this may trigger the need for other tours to adopt these things and so, whether you see LIV as good, bad or are indifferent, it may trigger improvements elsewhere by removing complacency brought about by lack of competition.

There is no lack of faIr competition there are plenty of tours around the world players can play on, most will play on the the one that gives the greatest reward. LIV though is simply not fair competition
Please explain how you think other tours might improve pay at the lower end when the new competition is doing precisely the opposite.

 

[Foxholer]

Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.

So just spin - yet again!

 

[Deleted member 1147]

But hes the biggest name in golf for years. He has the earnings over time etc.

Now some guys who have been on tour for a few years can do the same.. I dont see that as bad!

However, when Tiger started out the prize funds were nowhere near what they are today.
He was winning a matter of a few hundred grand in his earliest days. Now it's a minimum million for a win of any PGA tour event..
So the earning power of the current top lot is potentially much higher, thanks to Tiger.

 

[GB72]

There is no lack of faIr competition there are plenty of tours around the world players can play on, most will play on the the one that gives the greatest reward. LIV though is simply not fair competition
Please explain how you think other tours might improve pay at the lower end when the new competition is doing precisely the opposite.

Spread the prize pot across the entire entry. Have a set amount payable to everyone below the cut line (though you could grade it on placing) then award the remainder to be divided amongst those who make the cut.

 

[Ethan]

Again, where have I said that he didn't do it for his own financial interests?? I've said he has pumped some of it back into grass roots - that's all.

I didn't say you did. What I was saying that the promised pumping back in will be done in a way that maximises the benefit to his financial interests. You may call that sensible, or it could be considered an investment in brand management.

 

[doublebogey7]

Spread the prize pot across the entire entry. Have a set amount payable to everyone below the cut line (though you could grade it on placing) then award the remainder to be divided amongst those who make the cut.

That wasn't what I asked, so lets try again. You said "LIV may trigger improvements". LIV are trying to attract players at the top end not at the bottom. So how would LIV be an encouragement to PGAT reducing rewards for the top players. It makes zero sense.

 

[GB72]

That wasn't what I asked, so lets try again. You said "LIV may trigger improvements". LIV are trying to attract players at the top end not at the bottom. So how would LIV be an encouragement to PGAT giving greater rewards for players at the lower ends.

Because if LIV are paying the whole field, if LIV are gving better conditions then this may trigger other tours to offer similar. Change can be triggered by all sorts of things except one, the staunch continuation of the status quo. LIV could have no impact, it could make things worse, it could revolutionise everything, who knows (and in general terms, who really cares, it is golf, nothing more. Happy to agree with all of the sportswashing arguments and fully support how wrong that is but the more gneral postion on golf, tours etc. meh)

Perhaps be a little less patronising in your turn of phrase thoiugh, it makes for a far more pleasant debate.