LIV Golf

[Jimaroid]

Professional footballers include the ones all the way down the leagues to those who can’t afford to make a living but do it anyway. That’s sport. Take the idiot blinkers off.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?

Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil ?

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him

 

[GB72]

So where in my post did I say that Phil Jones and Pogba didn’t get paid ?

it was quite simple - if a footballer doesn’t perform to a required standard for a club they are let go

If a golfer doesn’t play to the required standard they don’t go paid

People can look for any comparison they want

Golf is golf - it has its format , it rewards the golfers that do well and if someone doesn’t do well then they don’t get the rewards

It is that last line that interests me. It is so definitive with a strong implication that nothing should ever change

Formats can change, pay and conditions can change, everything can change and evolve.

The PGA tour does one thing, LIV does another, no issue there, life is richer for variety. Now, if the members of the PGA Tour start pushing for payment throughout the field then there may be an underlying issue that this has helped bring to the fore. If not, all good, as you were.

Never understood why one thing has to be right and another has to be wrong and why different theories and ideologies cannot work side by side. Personally, I think LIV is paying too much for finishing last (but then again you have to when trying to start from scratch) but I also think that the average PGA gofler who misses a cut should be paid enough to cover travel and expenses with a bit on top to go in the bank just for making up the field.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It is that last line that interests me. It is so definitive with a strong implication that nothing should ever change

Formats can change, pay and conditions can change, everything can change and evolve.

The PGA tour does one thing, LIV does another, no issue there, life is richer for variety. Now, if the members of the PGA Tour start pushing for payment throughout the field then there may be an underlying issue that this has helped bring to the fore. If not, all good, as you were.

Never understood why one thing has to be right and another has to be wrong and why different theories and ideologies cannot work side by side. Personally, I think LIV is paying too much for finishing last (but then again you have to when trying to start from scratch) but I also think that the average PGA gofler who misses a cut should be paid enough to cover travel and expenses with a bit on top to go in the bank just for making up the field.

They can change - hence why they brought in things like the WGC , Fed Ex , RTD all events where people are rewarded for Qualfying

There are always lots of talk about golfers being self employed and independent contractors but then people want To be given expenses by the Tour ?

Do any other self employed workers get expenses or do they get paid when they do a good job ?

At the end of the day it’s a choice for the pro golfer - they can seek employment and a guaranteed wage with a golf club or golf body etc

Or they can employ themselves and look to earn their earnings by competing

 

[Swango1980]

Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil ?

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him

Not disputing your figure, I trust you got it from a reliable source. Where can I find such accurate figures?

When I google his career earnings, I can only find a career total of $1,344,228 for him, an average of $134,423 per year.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not disputing your figure, I trust you got it from a reliable source. Where can I find such accurate figures?

When I google his career earnings, I can only find a career total of $1,344,228 for him, an average of $134,423 per year.

That’s his PGA tour earnings

https://www.europeantour.com/players/scott-hend-31288/career-record

He has earned €5mil on the ET as well

Plus his earnings on the Asian Tour where he earned $1mil alone in one year

 

[Springveldt]

You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?

Clearly Scott Hend just needs to “git gud”. Imagine expecting to get paid when you are only the 500th best golfer on a planet of 8 billion people. Only the top 70 should be getting paid, the rest shouldn’t even have bothered turning up. /s

Imagine having to rely on sponsorship to see you through a rough patch since the organisation you are providing income for don’t think you are worth it. Sounds a bit like the sevice industry in the US that need tips to get by.

 

[GB72]

They can change - hence why they brought in things like the WGC , Fed Ex , RTD all events where people are rewarded for Qualfying

There are always lots of talk about golfers being self employed and independent contractors but then people want To be given expenses by the Tour ?

Do any other self employed workers get expenses or do they get paid when they do a good job ?

At the end of the day it’s a choice for the pro golfer - they can seek employment and a guaranteed wage with a golf club or golf body etc

Or they can employ themselves and look to earn their earnings by competing

Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position.

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

You are unbelievably obtuse on this discussion.

You are only seeing the players at the top of the rankings, you are ignoring all those that make up the field, quite happy for them to be collateral damage when it comes to what they get paid, as long as the event can have a cut, and be over 4 days, and you can get your VFM out of that SKy Sports package on a Sunday afternoon.

Take Scott Hend, I'm sure I saw a tweet earlier this year where he was 50k down on the season after missing the cut at the first 5 events. He's an aussie, playing the DP world tour, so will effectively live his life on aeroplanes and in hotels - he ranks just over 500 on the OWGR - how would you think that compares to the 500th best footballer in the world - given that the footballer is likely to be in the squad of one of the top 20 clubs globally?

You cannot compare the two sports. If Scott isn’t good enough to earn a living he should go do something else. Or are we now giving out participation medals for professionals?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position.

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.

Yep I was contractor for 4 years and didn’t get a penny in expenses but the contract was well paid for doing the job but I went to employed with them for extra benefits

If the PGA or indeed any of the other tours want to pay everyone then it will be the players that decide that and make the change and it will affect the prize money etc

 

[Mel Smooth]

You cannot compare the two sports. If Scott isn’t good enough to earn a living he should go do something else. Or are we now giving out participation medals for professionals?

So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?

That’s not what I said is it?

As you like a football comparison. Why hasn’t every level of football under League 2 collapsed?

 

[Ethan]

Yes, my wife was a self employed contractor for nearly a decade. She had hotel and dining costs as well as petrol expenses paid. Not sure how much you know about the life of a contrator. You turn up, you do your job you get paid. On that analogy, you then have to look at the contract. Surely it is to turn up, play golf and compete to the best of your ability, the contract is not to finish in any given position.

Again, with the definitive though. It is a rich vein running through golf as a whole that change or evolution is a bad thing, a swear work never to be mentioned. That is how it is and so that is how it must always be, no discussion, no argument seems to be the mantra.

So your wife's contract didn't say that is she did the best job of the week, she got a million dollars, second best half a million and so on, and if she was below average, nothing? Wow.

Did she also get pension contributions based on the number of such week's work she did? No, me neither and I am contractor too. I make my own contributions. PGA Tour players have pension pots based on the number of cuts and prize money earned.

So not really the same at all.

Silly to suggest that not thinking that the LIV Tour is a refreshing evolution in golf means that anyone wants to see total stasis in the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour has evolved plenty over the years, and has done so in response to the LIV Tour.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Is that scott Hend who has career earnings ( just comp money ) of over £5.5 mil ?

That’s £5mil doesn’t include all his endorsements over the years

And a footballer is “employed” by the club

Who employs the golfer

£5mil he has earned , must be tough for him

And how much of that has he spent supporting his career. A tube driver in London will earn about 3 million in his career - just to put Scott's earnings into perspective.

 

[Mel Smooth]

That’s not what I said is it?

As you like a football comparison. Why hasn’t every level of football under League 2 collapsed?

So you want them to get paid even less in comparison to the top players then, like football?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Clearly Scott Hend just needs to “git gud”. Imagine expecting to get paid when you are only the 500th best golfer on a planet of 8 billion people. Only the top 70 should be getting paid, the rest shouldn’t even have bothered turning up. /s

Imagine having to rely on sponsorship to see you through a rough patch since the organisation you are providing income for don’t think you are worth it. Sounds a bit like the sevice industry in the US that need tips to get by.

So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?

So you'd be happy to see all the supporting tours collapse then - because the guys grinding on them aren't good enough?

The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?

 

[Mel Smooth]

So Scott Hend has earned over £5mil yet is struggling ?

Is that the sports fault or Scott Hends fault that he didn’t spend his money wisely ?



The supporting tours haven’t collapsed though have they ? They are there right now doing what they should

Surely there is more chance of the supporting tours collapsing with LiV golf as its a closed shop unless invited ?

Never said he was struggling, I was pointing out that he'd spent 50 grand earlier this year to attend events, and not got a cent back. The 5 million is a gross figure, it will be taxable, and will incur huge outgoings.
I doubt he's set for life, let's put it that way.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

So you want them to get paid even less in comparison to the top players then, like football?

Again, where did I say that?

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Good for Jediah Morgan, he's one of the lucky one's that got an opportunity when the LIV was starting out, there are plenty more like him, but he still contributed to the event at Centurion, he was part of the 48 man field that turned out for 3 days, and he quite rightly got paid for it.

He isn't the target of LIV though is he? He's stop gap.
LIV wants the top players. So what happens to Morgan when he gets booted out for the big boys?
He goes back to the Australasian Tour, having to make cuts to get paid.
So you can't pretend LIV was set up for the betterment of the lesser players.

 

[rksquire]

Some of the things that are getting 'debated' are eye opening.... even being anti-LIV or pro-LIV or anywhere in between doesn't mean there can't be agreement around certain things that in the modern age seems antiquated.

Better conditions and treatment of caddies at Tournaments - only a good thing. It's not about how poorly they've been treated by the PGA Tour or where the money has come from to treat them better at LIV; it's about the fact they are finally in he conversation about how they should be treated better.

Financial reward for players missing the cut (or coming last) - just because you know the 'risks' doesn't make it right; there's enough money in the game to, at the very least, ensure an average weekly living wage for those that make the cut. Qualified from Q school? Congratulations - but you still to make the step up, finance yourself and make the cut enough times to not only keep your card but to pay all your living expenses. And you have other people depending on you etc. But even so, we expect you to come at your own expense and make up the numbers for the first 2 days so we can benefit from your presence. There's been enough cinderella stories to know that some professional golfers struggle to pay bills and need to borrow money to stay on the road. It shouldn't be hard either..... at the John Deere Classic the 'last' placed 69 got $15k or so; winner got $1.278m. In order to give the 80 or so cut participants $3,500* each, you'd need to take $280k away from the total receiving prize money or reduce everyone's purse (who got one) by just less than 4%. So the winnder gets $1.227m instead of $1.278m; 69th gets $14.4k instead of $15k. The 80 who missed the cut get $3.5k each - not enough to phone it in, but enough to at least survive. And if things are so tight for the not for profit organisation you can limit your liability - if at any point you earn in excess of $70,000 in the year you then no longer need the living wage payment.

Basically - there has to be some 'good' things we don't have to disagree on!

*arbitrary figure based on a minimum of 20 events to earn the living annual wage in USA (20 x $3.5k = $70k)