LIV Golf

[Deleted member 29109]

Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..

No, they are banned because they broke the conditions of the contract they signed.

Which players now signed up with 54 really make the Scottish Open field weaker by their absence?

 

[doublebogey7]

I don't think LIV or its supporters have any intention of looking to break the PGA, ideally they would co-exist. It is a defence, or rather attack, by the PGA against LIV that this is their angle.

There are many aspects of pro's and cons regarding LIV but to my mind, on the subject discussed most this morning, of paying ALL players, I think they have this right. If they push the PGA into all players in a tournament getting something for participating in an event then I think that is a good move for all.

If though LIV were to be successful in getting the top 48 players, then the commercial realities mean that PGA tour could not exist in its current form as it would cease to be attracting the best players in the world. Remaining players would therfore be getting a pay cut not an increase. It is easy to pay just 48 players especially when you have no need to abide by commercial norms.
I don't see how LIV will offer any encouragment what so ever to the PGA or other tours to pay more players. There aim is simply to take the very best players, to compete then PGA will have to do the same. So will be forced to pay fewer players ever larger amounts. The players that are leaving for LIV are the ones that have been pushing for higher rewards at the top, not for larger rewards at the bottom.

 

[Foxholer]

...
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..

Their primary role is 'protection and development of the existing tours'. If temporarily 'weakening' them helps that primary role, then that's what they have to do. It's no different to a company diverting resources to counter a perceived threat from a competitor.

 

[Mel Smooth]

No, they are banned because they broke the conditions of the contract they signed.

They requested exemptions, which have been granted before for other players.
Those requests were denied by the PGA - knowing full well the players would play anyway. And at that point, the house of cards started to topple.
The players can break their contracts if they so choose, the players can resign from the tour if they so choose. The PGA could have kept those players on board with their tour if they had so chosen, but they didn’t, and as time passes, they will lose more players, and more investment because of their actions.

 

[Ethan]

Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..

I suspect Greg Norman wants to see the PGA Tour fail. He has had a chip or two on his shoulder for years, because he doesn't think he got the respect he thinks he deserved.

The PGA Tour has had a process in place for years for players playing unsanctioned events., Call it protectionism if you like, but why should the PGA Tour provide a product which creates marketable players then a competitor organisation be allowed to exploit that? That isn't a lack of faith in the PGA Tour product, but the LIV Tour has potentially bottomless resources and are not competing in a commercial battleground.

If I went to work as contractor for GSK and then decided to do some work for Pfizer on the side, GSK would involve their contract clauses too. They wouldn't be doing so out of resentment and spite, but pricing their brands.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Their primary role is 'protection and development of the existing tours'. If temporarily 'weakening' them helps that primary role, then that's what they have to do. It's no different to a company diverting resources to counter a perceived threat from a competitor.

The DP World Tour has just been weakened for 14 years, hardly class that as ‘temporary’, would you?

 

[hovis]

Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change? You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts.
It's happening. Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed.
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.

 

[Mel Smooth]

I suspect Greg Norman wants to see the PGA Tour fail. He has had a chip or two on his shoulder for years, because he doesn't think he got the respect he thinks he deserved.

The PGA Tour has had a process in place for years for players playing unsanctioned events., Call it protectionism if you like, but why should the PGA Tour provide a product which creates marketable players then a competitor organisation be allowed to exploit that? That isn't a lack of faith in the PGA Tour product, but the LIV Tour has potentially bottomless resources and are not competing in a commercial battleground.

If I went to work as contractor for GSK and then decided to do some work for Pfizer on the side, GSK would involve their contract clauses too. They wouldn't be doing so out of resentment and spite, but pricing their brands.

I’m sure Norman would love to see the PGA Tour fail, especially given the manner of their reaction to the LIV series. But that doesn’t mean golf fans feel the same way.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Nobody wants to see that, there are plenty that want to see the LIV series fade away though.
The PGA Tour know they are threatened by LIV, and they clearly don’t have faith in their own product to take on LIV in a commercial battleground. They have introduced sanctions and alliances now with the DPWT to try and force players to stay with them, in the face of life changing wealth on the LIV series. They could have allowed players to have exemptions, but they have chosen a more aggressive route, which has forced a chasm of support between LIV and the PGA Tour, but make no mistake, the vast majority who are enjoying watching what LIV is offering, will also enjoy watching golf on the other tours and don’t want to see any of them fail.
Unfortunately- the actions being taken by Monahan and Pelley are weakening those tours, The Scottish Open is a perfect and prime example of that - some big names banned from competing- for what? Resentment and spite…..

why should the tours just stand back and allow LIV to use their financial wealth to just take all the top golfers away ?

The tours main responsibility is to their own tour and ensuring it’s sustainable - the tours are also pathways for all golfers to gain a career - the LIV tour is purely invitational only and focusing purely on the top golfers ( even though they can’t get them all )

You clearly can only see it from the LIV POV but what about the 1000’s of pro golfers who need the tours to gain a career ?

How about the damage to the sport being caused by a tour that’s based purely on money ?

All this is being caused by LIV golf - the PGA and other tours are reacting to what LIV golf are attempting to create - LIV aren’t interested in what’s good for golf or the players

The tour have their rules and expect their members to abide by the rules - if those golfers can’t abide by the rules then you expect they would need to be sanctioned

And those players knew the consequences of their actions - there appears to be the want from the LIV golf and the golfers who jumped ship to still have the best of both worlds - pure selfishness at the end of the day and imo it’s tough that they are being suspended/banned etc - I’m sure the money they will be given ( as opposed to earned) will compensate them

 

[Mel Smooth]

why should the tours just stand back and allow LIV to use their financial wealth to just take all the top golfers away ?

The tours main responsibility is to their own tour and ensuring it’s sustainable - the tours are also pathways for all golfers to gain a career - the LIV tour is purely invitational only and focusing purely on the top golfers ( even though they can’t get them all )

You clearly can only see it from the LIV POV but what about the 1000’s of pro golfers who need the tours to gain a career ?

How about the damage to the sport being caused by a tour that’s based purely on money ?

All this is being caused by LIV golf - the PGA and other tours are reacting to what LIV golf are attempting to create - LIV aren’t interested in what’s good for golf or the players

The tour have their rules and expect their members to abide by the rules - if those golfers can’t abide by the rules then you expect they would need to be sanctioned

And those players knew the consequences of their actions - there appears to be the want from the LIV golf and the golfers who jumped ship to still have the best of both worlds - pure selfishness at the end of the day and imo it’s tough that they are being suspended/banned etc - I’m sure the money they will be given ( as opposed to earned) will compensate them

Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes, some golf events do the same. But does Wimbledon pay Novak Djokovic's travelling witch doctor or homeopath?

Not sure about those requirements - though I doubt it. But certainly physios. I believe the company you are making reference to is, that Djok has a controlling interest in, actually does do scientific research, just not in a 'traditional' area. As many significant advances in medicine (Penicillin and X-Rays probably being the biggest) have been the results of 'accidents' as opposed to specific research, I've no problem if he spends his money on such developments.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

However, as far as I understand - and I haven't located the rules tht would confirm it - to be able to award OWGR points, a tournament must have a (halfway?) cut and be 72 holes. Those are 2 attributes LIV specifically changed to be 'different'! There may be others, such as it being an 'invitation' tour (and) with no qualifying process. I don't see that changing, so there could well be an impasse. For many - the old timers on the way down (even DJ) probably won't care.

Doesn't Tiger's invitation tournament at the beginning of the season get points? The one where he invites his mates and a few select others? As others have also highlighted, The Masters is by invitation as well, and earns points.

Somebody quoted Hunter Mahan a few pages ago stating he expects the comps to go to 72 holes eventually. No doubt some other reason will be found to exclude them from earning points still. It is all very messy.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.

Which players who would have played the SO are now not because they joined LiV?

 

[Foxholer]

The DP World Tour has just been weakened for 14 years, hardly class that as ‘temporary’, would you?

That's a different argument that actually weakens yours.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Read your 1st line and tell me who has taken those top players away from the Scottish Open, and I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t LIV.

1. Where the players playing in the Scottish Open before they moved to the LIV tour ? Yes

So it’s the players actions and LIVs actions that have caused this

Why should the PGA ignore their own rules ( and also the ET and the other tours that are supported the PGA )

Can you really not see that this is all happening because of LiV - are you really unable to attach any blame at all on LiV golf , Greg Norman and the Saudi government- are they blameless in all this ?

 

[Ethan]

Not sure about those requirements - though I doubt it. But certainly physios. I believe the company you are making reference to is, that Djok has a controlling interest in, actually does do scientific research, just not in a 'traditional' area. As many significant advances in medicine (Penicillin and X-Rays probably being the biggest) have been the results of 'accidents' as opposed to specific research, I've no problem if he spends his money on such developments.

The company Djokovic has an investment in certainly looks quite conventional, but the core science they claim to be looking at is laughably quackish.

The discovery of penicillin or X-Rays is irrelevant and utterly different. And for every penicillin, there are a thousand crazy ideas that didn't work.

I also don't care if he spends his money on this stuff either, but don't consider it a rational scientific endeavour.

 

[r0wly86]

Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change? You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts.
It's happening. Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed.
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.

I think they will go away and fairly quickly.

Players are big names because they win mainly majors or perform in the Ryder Cup. These 5 events cut through to a lot more people than would care for regular tour events. The reason why Reed, BDC, and Koepka are being talked about moving to LIV because they have recently won majors.

Without OWGR most players on LIV will not qualify for majors, they will become former big names. Whereas the majors and Ryder Cups will keep happening bringing new names to the fore and then those players will become the big names.

All the while the Saudi investment fund is throwing money down the drain, at some point they will pull the plug as what they intended is not working

 

[Ethan]

I’m sure Norman would love to see the PGA Tour fail, especially given the manner of their reaction to the LIV series. But that doesn’t mean golf fans feel the same way.

I am glad you acknowledge that petty vengeance and bad faith are part of the rationale for the LIV Tour. Norman's poisonous personality will probably start to infect LIV Tour HQ soon enough too.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Why do we pull back so hard when it comes to change? You can definitely tell who's who on this forum reading some of these posts.
It's happening. Liv isn't going away and I'm amazed that after 161 pages of discussion not a single perspective has been changed.
As golfers we can't even accept a change of what colour socks you should or shouldn't be allowed to wear.

Because when someone is pushing something that hard down your throat the easiest way to get some air is to push it back?

Many years ago we were looking for a new car for Mrs BiM, who was her parents’ primary form of transport at the time and the car needed to reflect their needs, including carrying a wheelchair. We had a shortlist, including the Honda Jazz. After looking at it, I asked the salesman to tell me why I should buy it. His reply was to tell me to look at the other cars on the shortlist and then he’d see me when I came back as he had the best product. And he was right, and we bought the Honda.

If Greg and the Saudis have the best product then tell me about its advantages, without resorting to dissing the alternative products; if you’re right I’ll decide for myself that it’s the right product for me, I’ll come to it of my own accord and I will then spread the word.

Try to bully me into liking it by denigrating the existing product or by telling me I’m not hip or with it for not liking the new format and you’ll get the reaction the LIV tour is currently getting.

Does anyone really think that if it’s that good we won’t work that out for ourselves without being browbeaten into it?

 

[r0wly86]

Doesn't Tiger's invitation tournament at the beginning of the season get points? The one where he invites his mates and a few select others? As others have also highlighted, The Masters is by invitation as well, and earns points.

Somebody quoted Hunter Mahan a few pages ago stating he expects the comps to go to 72 holes eventually. No doubt some other reason will be found to exclude them from earning points still. It is all very messy.

The Masters is not really an invitational though. The Masters Committee can invite players, but other than the qualification criteria and published and I don't believe it is within their gift not to invite someone who qualifies through those routes