LIV Golf

[Backsticks]

PGA should back down, for those players that want to play both PGA Tour and LIV - let them, for those that don't - no problem.

Of course its a problem. From a golfing perspective its no problem. But the contest between LIV and he PGA Tour isnt a golf competition, its business competition. They are not amateur organisations like the USGA and R&A whose mission is the good of the game. They are commercial rivals, battling and trying to protect their own ground and existance.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

PGA should back down, for those players that want to play both PGA Tour and LIV - let them, for those that don't - no problem.

The PGA Tour have tried to force the players decisions with bans, and threats - it hasn't really worked as the players like Rory, Rahm and Fitzpatrick were probably never interested, where as the ones that have already gone or are going are prepared to sack off the PGA Tour anyway - and the only loser there really, is the PGA Tour.

There isn't really one big event (as in a Major ot TPC etc) left on US soil now for the PGA Tour, and if they (and the media) continue the "smear campaign" against LIV through The Open, a lot more people will become disgruntled with the obsessive LIV questions.
In comparison, LIV have 5 events in America where they can dominate the headlines and build up support for their product.

I'd imagine that Monahon was hoping he'd have done a better job of snuffing out the LIV threat by now, but it hasn't happened - he really does need to have a rethink about their approach.

There is still the Fed Ex Cup playoffs on US Soil

I’m not sure what you think has changed over the last week but what the golf world saw was a brilliant US Open where it was dominated by the up and coming new breed of players that are clearly very much with the PGA Tour

The LIV players were not even a side note in dispatches on the Sunday evening , that tells you everything you need to know - the biggest LIV highlight was watching Mickleson hack it around the golf course and people feeling zero sympathy for him

The golf did its talking this weekend

 

[Swango1980]

The same old tired argument that "people don't condemn everything therefore anything is agreeable".

Personally I'd no idea about it, and it's a real shame that an organisation crying out for equality is taking money from somewhere that has very dubious practices.

Regardless, the issue remains that if you don't stand for anything then you stand for nothing.

I just find social media interesting. I have spoken to dozens of people face to face about LIV, it is certainly a big talking point around the golf club. Certainly a lot of negative and positive comments, but mostly people are intrigued as to how it will pan out. However, not one person has ever raised human rights or taken the moral high ground about it. And pretty much everyone has understood exactly why players would jump at the chance to take that amount of money.

Yet, on social media you find it is where the moral warriors of this world live, who like to tell everyone what decisions they should make, and if they disagree criticise that persons own moral judgement.

The reason I asked about the PIF Saudi International is that, for people with such a high moral compass, then this tournament must also be criticised by the same arguments? I don't remember the PGA Tour being outraged by it? I wouldn't go as far as criticising people for putting petrol in their car, or what clothes they wear, as I do recognise a difference between having highly moral views but also being able to do the necessities in life.

 

[AussieKB]

PGA Tour plots stunning $108m move to beat LIV

https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/p...y/news-story/6821246458d789dc2710043995e56af1

Very interesting article....I wonder where all the money is coming from.

 

[Mel Smooth]

There is still the Fed Ex Cup playoffs on US Soil

I’m not sure what you think has changed over the last week but what the golf world saw was a brilliant US Open where it was dominated by the up and coming new breed of players that are clearly very much with the PGA Tour

The LIV players were not even a side note in dispatches on the Sunday evening , that tells you everything you need to know - the biggest LIV highlight was watching Mickleson hack it around the golf course and people feeling zero sympathy for him

The golf did its talking this weekend

Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved?

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.

 

[Depreston]

PGA Tour plots stunning $108m move to beat LIV

https://www.foxsports.com.au/golf/p...y/news-story/6821246458d789dc2710043995e56af1

Very interesting article....I wonder where all the money is coming from.

108 mil v billions

It won’t be enough

 

[PJ87]

Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved?

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.

DJ finished above the current PGA championship winner aswell yet thought he was past it

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil. It was a major, the LIV series is one event in, nobody expects the calibre of players in the Liv series at this stage to be of the calibre of events that are over 100 years old.
Please don't tell me that you believe the remaining events on the PGA tour wouldn't be more interesting if DJ, Bryson, Phil etc were involved?

Actually, don't answer that - but I know most golf fans would prefer to see them included.

The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that.

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points

 

[Mel Smooth]

The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that.

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points

The distractions are coming from the media, not LIV. They only started to wind their necks in when Koepka said he was sick of hearing about it - that's my point, the PGA are losing support because of the path they've taken by being so divisive. If they'd sanctioned players to play, LIV wouldn't have got a fraction of the attention it took away from the US Open

Does the PGA hold more cards? In terms of player quality they do, but after that, I'd say the LIV has a lot more footholds build their product this year than the tour does.

There's room for both, but if they're going to fight it out, the PGA is going to have to take a lot of blows to see this out.

 

[Swango1980]

The remaining events won’t be at a loss of the likes of Mickleson aren’t there - as we could see by the Canadian Open the PGA has plenty of high level talent to showcase there events

Them being in it would potentially cause more distractions away from the actual events themselves which is what initially happened at the US Open - then when the golf got going people didn’t care about LIV tour - and it’s going to continue to be like that.

The PGA tour is not going to change their stance , they know they hold a lot more key cards than LiV - who ultimately just hold money , they will continue to be a side note without ranking points

Yet, how would the Canadian Open have been if Rory McIlroy wasn't playing. Or if Justin Thomas wasn't playing? If Justin Thomas joined LIV, you could still use the same argument that "there is plenty of high level talent" on the PGA to showcase their events. Yet, in that specific event, you would not have had the same high level golf we were treated to.

You cannot expect Rory McIlroy, Justin Thomas and Tony Finau to battle for the win in every PGA Tour event. They'll have plenty of bad days, and plenty of events they won't even be part of. In another PGA Tour event, who is to say it wouldn't have been DJ and Bryson battling it at the top. Two big hitters battling for the win. That could also provide an exciting spectacled for fans. But, we won't get it on the PGA Tour. We might get it on LIV though.

For the fans, I've no doubt the PGA holds more pulling power than LIV because of the quality of the field, history of the events and the fact that the outcome in each event has a meaningful impact on world ranking and FedEx points. But, LIV has certainly weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of it's better players. If this continues, then there could be a point where there are just as many, if not more, of the worlds best players on LIV. Even if the World Ranking Points do not indicate that, fans will be aware exactly why that is. I'd imagine the World Rankings will have to include LIV at some point, otherwise it makes a mockery of the system itself. I appreciate there is always a debate on the detail of how world ranking points are calculated, but to completely ignore players who are clearly up there with the best in the world would be ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The distractions are coming from the media, not LIV. They only started to wind their necks in when Koepka said he was sick of hearing about it - that's my point, the PGA are losing support because of the path they've taken by being so divisive. If they'd sanctioned players to play, LIV wouldn't have got a fraction of the attention it took away from the US Open

The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport

Does the PGA hold more cards? In terms of player quality they do, but after that, I'd say the LIV has a lot more footholds build their product this year than the tour does.

There's room for both, but if they're going to fight it out, the PGA is going to have to take a lot of blows to see this out.

Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players

 

[Lord Tyrion]

WGC events are money spinners, they hold no greater credibility in history than the John Deere Classic or whatever. Now that LIV has come along that prize money for the WGC doesn't stand out quite so much.

The PGA stance is weakening their own product at the moment and I only see that continuing if they do not soften.

 

[Swango1980]

The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport



Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

That’s bigger than any money PIF can throw out players

Clearly not to all players, given that some have already played in LIV, and others have committed themselves to LIV after the PGA formally banned the guys playing in the first LIV event.

If LIV didn't hold any cards, the PGA would really have no reason to get its knickers in a twist about LIV.

 

[AddisonRoad]

To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yet, how would the Canadian Open have been if Rory McIlroy wasn't playing. Or if Justin Thomas wasn't playing? If Justin Thomas joined LIV, you could still use the same argument that "there is plenty of high level talent" on the PGA to showcase their events. Yet, in that specific event, you would not have had the same high level golf we were treated to.

But the players were there so all the ifs are irrelevant at the end of the day -

The Canadian Open was a superb tournament that showcased some of the best in the world - as opposed to the exhibition in Hemel Hempstead

You cannot expect Rory McIlroy, Justin Thomas and Tony Finau to battle for the win in every PGA Tour event. They'll have plenty of bad days, and plenty of events they won't even be part of. In another PGA Tour event, who is to say it wouldn't have been DJ and Bryson battling it at the top. Two big hitters battling for the win. That could also provide an exciting spectacled for fans. But, we won't get it on the PGA Tour. We might get it on LIV though.

For the fans, I've no doubt the PGA holds more pulling power than LIV because of the quality of the field, history of the events and the fact that the outcome in each event has a meaningful impact on world ranking and FedEx points. But, LIV has certainly weakened the PGA Tour by removing some of it's better players. If this continues, then there could be a point where there are just as many, if not more, of the worlds best players on LIV. Even if the World Ranking Points do not indicate that, fans will be aware exactly why that is. I'd imagine the World Rankings will have to include LIV at some point, otherwise it makes a mockery of the system itself. I appreciate there is always a debate on the detail of how world ranking points are calculated, but to completely ignore players who are clearly up there with the best in the world would be ridiculous.

But Rory and Co aren’t going the LIV so the point is irrelevant ?‍ - they are battling out on the PGA tour along with the likes of Scheffler, Spieth , Zalatoris, Schuaffle, Morikawa

Is it 4 or 5 people from the top 50 that have chased the money - that leaves 40 plus other players , plus the rest of the top 100 fighting out for wins on the PGA tour - I don’t think they have too much to worry about if Rory and Justin take a week off , there will be others coming through that will be looking to earn their wins and money

Loosing a couple of players is not changing the PGA tour - whilst all those other top players and the new batch are with the PGA then they will hold the cards

As for ranking points - they are 54 hole events , the panel aren’t going to award these events ranking points and even then the points will still be with the players as opposed to the events

 

[timd77]

To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.

Agreed. I had that LIV event on in the background whilst working, got more work done than if I’d had the radio on! Once the first 30 mins were done, we’d seen the shotgun start and that it quickly ended up being an exhibition with nothing really at stake, my morbid curiosity disappeared. If all the top players went to LIV I’d stop watching golf on tv aside from the majors and Ryder cup, I won’t be helping the Saudi regime complete their sports washing.

Edit - I meant if the PGA was no more because all the players went to LIV.

 

[Swango1980]

But the players were there so all the ifs are irrelevant at the end of the day -

The Canadian Open was a superb tournament that showcased some of the best in the world - as opposed to the exhibition in Hemel Hempstead


But Rory and Co aren’t going the LIV so the point is irrelevant ?‍ - they are battling out on the PGA tour along with the likes of Scheffler, Spieth , Zalatoris, Schuaffle, Morikawa

Is it 4 or 5 people from the top 50 that have chased the money - that leaves 40 plus other players , plus the rest of the top 100 fighting out for wins on the PGA tour - I don’t think they have too much to worry about if Rory and Justin take a week off , there will be others coming through that will be looking to earn their wins and money

Loosing a couple of players is not changing the PGA tour - whilst all those other top players and the new batch are with the PGA then they will hold the cards

As for ranking points - they are 54 hole events , the panel aren’t going to award these events ranking points and even then the points will still be with the players as opposed to the events

They are still weakening it. You certainly can't say that a Tour is strengthened after losing several of its highest ranked players. Nor can you say it remains unchanged. As I said, the PGA it still a significantly stronger brand than LIV, it is just weaker than it was before LIV.

Leading up to LIV, DJ, Westy, Phil, Garcia, etc were all signed up. We could be having the exact same debate. I could have said if someone like Bryson moved across, the PGA Tour would be a little weaker. A fair argument, I believe, and you could have said it is irrelevant because Bryson hadn't signed up to it. Yet, here we are, and he has signed up to it.

Of course these discussions are relevant. Unless you can convince me that no other world leading player will ever join LIV, and it is now only the guys who have already signed up (or future guys approaching the Seniors Tour age). If that is indeed the case, then I will be happy to agree with you. The PGA holds all the cards, and LIV will never amount to anything apart from giving a few guys a decent pension.

 

[Foxholer]

To me it's crazy that anyone believes the PGA should welcome LIV - they should be doing the exact opposite. If anything, the PGA Tour needs to be more aggressive if they want to protect their product. I understand the PGA isn't perfect, but they've spent decades building a brand, and they shouldn't be willing to relinquish their market.

If I were in charge of the PGA I would be looking to run the tour at a loss to increase prize money and prevent LIV from attracting any additional players. This would need to be partnered with an aggressive move to increase revenue, but with the new Netflix series coming out, I'm sure there are going to be more revenue streams arising.

While everyone has their own opinions, I don't see how anyone finds the new format exciting. It's anti-competitive and the LIV event felt like a fundraising event, not an actual tournament. Personally, the sooner this goes away the better, and I suspect that LIV won't last as long as many people think it will, as long as the PGA continues to be aggressive in defending its market.

Who is this 'PGA' you mention? Is it 'PGA Tour', the commercial body? Or 'USPGA', the administrative body? Please clarify/differentiate, as it's quite confusing otherwise.
FWIW. I don't believe the PGA Tour could afford 'running at a loss' to counter LIV, as it doesn't have he virtually bottomless pit of resources LIV has access to!
And Pelley seems, almost by default, to have played ET's hand better than Monahan's 'war' style. The PGAET may come out of the 'battle' stronger!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They are still weakening it. You certainly can't say that a Tour is strengthened after losing several of its highest ranked players. Nor can you say it remains unchanged. As I said, the PGA it still a significantly stronger brand than LIV, it is just weaker than it was before LIV.

Leading up to LIV, DJ, Westy, Phil, Garcia, etc were all signed up. We could be having the exact same debate. I could have said if someone like Bryson moved across, the PGA Tour would be a little weaker. A fair argument, I believe, and you could have said it is irrelevant because Bryson hadn't signed up to it. Yet, here we are, and he has signed up to it.

Of course these discussions are relevant. Unless you can convince me that no other world leading player will ever join LIV, and it is now only the guys who have already signed up (or future guys approaching the Seniors Tour age). If that is indeed the case, then I will be happy to agree with you. The PGA holds all the cards, and LIV will never amount to anything apart from giving a few guys a decent pension.

It’s irrelevant to talk about events that have passed in regards players not being there when those players were actually there ?‍ - what does it prove ?

It’s relevant if talking about future events - and then you can look at what players are in those events to see how they stack up - Not every event will have the likes of Rory and Thomas fighting it out but there is deep strength within the PGA tour so that there will potentially be other players stepping up

The impact on the tour of losing players like DJ , Mickleson and BDC is very little , the Canadian Open was sponsered by RDC I think it is and they are Prime sponser for DJ and BDC - that event wasn’t affected by those not being there , nor will they Fed Ex be affected - edit - it’s rocket mortgages that dropped BDC ( the sponsor of the next PGA event )

“IF” the likes of Thomas , McIlroy , Spieth , Schuaffle left then it would be a sit up moment

But until then 99% of the tour is the gap between the main Tour and the Champions tour - players who you don’t really expect to be challenging anymore and looking for a last pay day - plus the odd player who is looking at it all as a purely business decision like DJ and BDC and imo there aren’t many others on the tour like those two

 

[evemccc]

The distraction is caused by a state offering players unprecedented levels of money to just play in a rival golf tournament

In what way are the PGA Losing support ?

The path they have taken is the path they believe to protect their tour and also the members of that tour

They aren’t going to allow players to just go off and play exhibition tournaments which is purely based on huge levels of funding

Koepka and Co created the situation themselves - they are in the media spotlight and will get asked the tough questions - welcome to the world of sport



Yes the PGA tour hold the cards - it’s called ranking points which are key entry into the majors and WGC’s plus also the Ryder Cup qualification is about to start

1)
So explain the many iterations of The Match…Tiger vs Phil, Brooks vs Bryson etc

2)
Is that the same Ryder Cup that Tiger Woods wanted appearance money to play in, and cared about it so greatly that his performance over the course of his career flew far below both that of the GOAT (Jack) and also his own talent level?