Inflation of Greens Fees for the Top UK Courses

[patricks148]

When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.

funny you say that, but pretty much every guy i know and play with at Nairn all want to try top courses and make an effort to get and play as many as they can, if you were to ask guys at old Torvean/ Kingss in Inverness the opposite, happy to play all there golf at their home club, i was staggered by the number of guys hadn't played many if any of even the locatl top courses

 

[Deleted member 25172]

When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.

At my golf club, of the people I know, there's a few who couldn't care less. They'd be happy to play our home courses every single day of the week, all year round. Apart from them, there's varying degrees. I'm obviously on the more extreme side, day dreaming myself away and can spend hours looking at flyovers, planning hypothetical trips to these places etc, so in that I'm alone at the club as far as I'm aware. Then we have a few who like to treat themselves once a year or so with a nicer course. The biggest group though are the one's who don't really mind, but if someone else sorts everything, then they could splash some cash, to a certain degree. I don't think I'd find anyone to join me for Sunningdale at £275 though. Well, I wouldn't go myself at that price, so.

 

[davidy233]

I've played five of the courses on the list posted at the start of the thread - two of them paying full price Old Course and Royal Dornoch - requirements for a family holiday when my kids were small were a beach for them and a nice golf course for me - but it was an awful lot cheaper back then - the three in the last decade have all been at cut price rates - My brother in law is a member at North Berwick and when we played in the winter it was a ridiculously low signing on fee for me - Cruden Bay was a seniors open and cost £15 - Carnoustie was £85 five years ago as a local council tax payer. Would I pay full price for them now - probably not.

The people I know who play in this area will mostly have played the Old Course and Carnoustie if they want to and I've never really found many who have a desire to pay full price to collect other 'top rated courses' - like everyone else if a member/season ticket holder wants to sign them on then most would take the opportunity.

 

[sunshine]

I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities where populated by 90% foreigners, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?

This is essentially an emotional argument based on what suits you.

Why should the members of a private club choose to halve the green fee so that you can afford it? They would then need to double the number of visitors to maintain the same income, so it would become more difficult for members to find tee times. There would also be more traffic around the course and clubhouse so more maintenance costs.

I'd love the top courses to cap green fees at £50 but that's just me being selfish.

 

[AliMc]

At my golf club, of the people I know, there's a few who couldn't care less. They'd be happy to play our home courses every single day of the week, all year round. Apart from them, there's varying degrees. I'm obviously on the more extreme side, day dreaming myself away and can spend hours looking at flyovers, planning hypothetical trips to these places etc, so in that I'm alone at the club as far as I'm aware. Then we have a few who like to treat themselves once a year or so with a nicer course. The biggest group though are the one's who don't really mind, but if someone else sorts everything, then they could splash some cash, to a certain degree. I don't think I'd find anyone to join me for Sunningdale at £275 though. Well, I wouldn't go myself at that price, so.

I'm very similar to this, played quite a few of the courses mentioned when rates were what I considered reasonable/affordable, now would be perfectly happy to play all my golf at Dunbar with only a couple of trips a year (when allowed) to some of our reciprocal courses which are all about £35 max, some less than this.

 

[sunshine]

I'm very similar to this, played quite a few of the courses mentioned when rates were what I considered reasonable/affordable, now would be perfectly happy to play all my golf at Dunbar with only a couple of trips a year (when allowed) to some of our reciprocal courses which are all about £35 max, some less than this.

If you're a member at a lovely place like Dunbar you have less incentive to fork out visitors fees to play courses which aren't much better than your own.

On the other hand I have some mates who are members at a public course and they are always off on trips to nice courses. They pay £100 membership and then it's pay and play so their golf budget extends to expensive green fees.

 

[Bdill93]

When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.

Me and my PP's are members of a very modestly priced club so that we can still afford green fees when we want a change of scenery. I would'nt say we would happily pay the green fees in the OP, but as part of a golf weekend with a nights stay away etc we probably would. Collecting the top 100 is not a target, but I sure would like to play as many of them as possible over my years of golfing! Its a treat to play them - as you said!

 

[jim8flog]

[QUOTE="DRW, post: 2307396, member: 21258" In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. .[/QUOTE]

2008 recession / stock market crash

 

[Foxholer]

Me and my PP's are members of a very modestly priced club so that we can still afford green fees when we want a change of scenery. I would'nt say we would happily pay the green fees in the OP, but as part of a golf weekend with a nights stay away etc we probably would. Collecting the top 100 is not a target, but I sure would like to play as many of them as possible over my years of golfing! Its a treat to play them - as you said!

While there is definitely something to be said for experiencing the joys of top-end courses, it's almost as rewarding finding fantastic courses at (relative) bargain rates! And I believe there are still plenty of those to be found.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf. My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf. My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...

I hope you are going to tick off Silloth on your way up to tick off Nairn later this year

 

[Liverbirdie]

This is essentially an emotional argument based on what suits you.

Why should the members of a private club choose to halve the green fee so that you can afford it? They would then need to double the number of visitors to maintain the same income, so it would become more difficult for members to find tee times. There would also be more traffic around the course and clubhouse so more maintenance costs.

I'd love the top courses to cap green fees at £50 but that's just me being selfish.

Generally, you couldn't be more wrong.

Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740 (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.

Very good research.

I'd love to know what the profit comparison is, though.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I've never looked to tick-off Top 100 courses - mostly as my Mrs reckons I pay more than enough to be a member of my club and I'd struggle to get her to sanction my spending £200+ on a round of golf. My £150 round of The Emirates Faldo course when in Dubai a few years ago was only OK'd as she'd spent £700 on a ring the day before - and she decided it was only fair that she return 'my' generosity...

Sounds like you got a great deal there

 

[matt71]

Have to admit I am have played some of the top 100 at full price but played some in winter/Easter time when the cost is reduced by quite a bit.

Royal Liverpool accept the county card and it’s around £50 to play there and I was lucky to get on Royal Lytham for free as I was a Marshall at one of the opens.

However me and the wife are off to Ireland at the end of May ( hopefully we can still go if all is well and safe) and I am paying full price for Royal Portrush and portstewart for my 50th birthday

The good thing is that my wife has been offered courtesy of the course as she is lady captain this year so it make the round half price

I can’t ruddy wait just not confident that we will be allowed to go now though

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I hope you are going to tick off Silloth on your way up to tick off Nairn later this year

Last time we headed north I played Southerness (is it on a list?) - well me and my daughters b/f played five holes, but in a horizontal deluge that’s all we could cope with before trudging in...drowned rats...

Anyway...next time north it‘ll just be me and Mrs...so no golf likely until Inverness (we will stop at Dunkeld or Pitlochry and maybe...?). Possibility that we’ll extend trip to include Islay to stay at my brothers place while he’s there (he’s a member of Machrie).

 

[Liverbirdie]

Have to admit I am have played some of the top 100 at full price but played some in winter/Easter time when the cost is reduced by quite a bit.

Royal Liverpool accept the county card and it’s around £50 to play there and I was lucky to get on Royal Lytham for free as I was a Marshall at one of the opens.

However me and the wife are off to Ireland at the end of May ( hopefully we can still go if all is well and safe) and I am paying full price for Royal Portrush and portstewart for my 50th birthday

The good thing is that my wife has been offered courtesy of the course as she is lady captain this year so it make the round half price

I can’t ruddy wait just not confident that we will be allowed to go now though

Me too, I'm there the last week of May, 1st week of June, all being well.

Hoping to play the same two, and maybe Portsalon or Rosapenna.

Portrush is brilliant, but I havent played portstewart before, but LQ and Capt. ron said that the front 9 is one of the best they've played.

 

[sunshine]

Generally, you couldn't be more wrong.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Last time we headed north I played Southerness (is it on a list?) - well me and my daughters b/f played five holes, but in a horizontal deluge that’s all we could cope with before trudging in...drowned rats...

Anyway...next time north it‘ll just be me and Mrs...so no golf likely until Inverness (we will stop at Dunkeld or Pitlochry and maybe...?). Possibility that we’ll extend trip to include Islay to stay at my brothers place while he’s there (he’s a member of Machrie).

Southerness is certainly on the list of brutally tough courses ?

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Very good research.

I'd love to know what the profit comparison is, though.

Hey cheeky you said one question before

For this club here some figures [will round to nearest 1k], I dont show the VAT rebate years, as clearly mega excesses :-

1994 28,000 profit
1995 28,000 profit
1999 -5,000 loss
2000 6,000 profit
2004 71,000 profit
2005 20,000 profit
2010 27,000 profit
2012 -36,000 loss
2013 47,000 profit
2014 69,000 profit
2015 34,000 profit
2017 1,000 profit
2018 -23,000 loss
2019 21,000 profit

I will leave you to judge, if you think the profits/losses made are excessive or above average at this club, green fees are about £80, they take county card & reciprocals at less and the bulk of their income is membership income and course is busy when I have played there and not top notch or excess employees when compared to the top flight clubs.

As I say a bog standard top 100 members club. So generally better off than a standard members average club and much lower running costs than a top flight club. I have seen alot worse results btw(and better), at other top 100 england clubs, not far from you, that you would not expect.

BTW It would be wrong to expect the figures to be zero or near zero, as any proper business(even not for profit based ones) need to make profits to fund the future and inflation changes. Many golf clubs tend to have positive cash flow, which helps as well and they then can keep profit requirements fairly low, unless they want to invest big in course changes/equipment/clubhouse (ie. by positive cashflow I mean they get the money first/now/in advance to spend afterwards to run the club for the year)

 

[sunshine]

Hey cheeky you said one question before

For this club here some figures [will round to nearest 1k], I dont show the VAT rebate years, as clearly mega excesses :-

1994 28,000 profit
1995 28,000 profit
1999 -5,000 loss
2000 6,000 profit
2004 71,000 profit
2005 20,000 profit
2010 27,000 profit
2012 -36,000 loss
2013 47,000 profit
2014 69,000 profit
2015 34,000 profit
2017 1,000 profit
2018 -23,000 loss
2019 21,000 profit

I will leave you to judge, if you think the profits/losses made are excessive or above average at this club, green fees are about £80, they take county card & reciprocals at less and the bulk of their income is membership income and course is busy when I have played there and not top notch or excess employees when compared to the top flight clubs.

As I say a bog standard top 100 members club. So generally better off than a standard members average club and much lower running costs than a top flight club. I have seen alot worse results btw(and better), at other top 100 england clubs, not far from you, that you would not expect.

BTW It would be wrong to expect the figures to be zero or near zero, as any proper business(even not for profit based ones) need to make profits to fund the future and inflation changes. Many golf clubs tend to have positive cash flow, which helps as well and they then can keep profit requirements fairly low, unless they want to invest big in course changes/equipment/clubhouse (ie. by positive cashflow I mean they get the money first/now/in advance to spend afterwards to run the club for the year)

Did you consider advising a leveraged management buyout to release the excess cash flow? There's also the tax shield provided by increasing debt.