Inflation of Greens Fees for the Top UK Courses

[Liverbirdie]

If you ain't local then you're a tourist

And if there were no tourists St. Andrews would still be a "proper" municipal.

How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?

 

[Papas1982]

If you ain't local then you're a tourist

Tourists imo go for once in a lifetime.

Make the prices even remotely more affordable and the courses would have regular visitors meaning they wouldn’t need to rely on overseas visitors.
That would bring in more money to the whole area imo than just staying at the most exclusive places whilst playing the courses as those paying top dollar will tend to do.

 

[davidy233]

And if there were no tourists St. Andrews would still be a "proper" municipal.

How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?

There isn't a train station in St Andrews - it survived for a long time before tourism. Nothing wrong with being for the benefit of locals - that's what links trusts are for. Fife and Angus got that spot on.

 

[Liverbirdie]

There isn't a train station in St Andrews - it survived for a long time before tourism. Nothing wrong with being for the benefit of locals - that's what links trusts are for. Fife and Angus got that spot on.

St. Andrews may not, but most links courses do have one locally.

I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities where populated by 90% foreigners, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?

 

[davidy233]

St. Andrews may not, but most links courses do have one locally.

I've no problem with the locals getting highly beneficial rates, I'm well in favour of them, but I just think it should be extended nationally and also to GB and I, as its becoming unaffordable for too many golfers.

Ok, as a university town, would you be happy if all of our great universities where populated by 90% foreigners, as UK people couldn't afford it, unless rich?

This is getting into borderline Nationalistic stuff that I can't be doing with

 

[SammmeBee]

I think all green fees demonstrate the exceptional value that golf club membership offers, even more so at these high end green fee types.....

 

[patricks148]

Well done to the ones who either insisted on this, or offered this.

Have they started the next developments at Castle Stuart, be it the 2nd course or the surrounding housing?

i don't think its down to the courses, more the councils local dev initiatives. when CS was being built i was working for VS and we all got invited for a tour... not a game mind just a tour. i asked if there were going to be offers for locals as it was already branded around at £175 and back in 2008 that was a lot. the guy (who later went on to be out club sec) told me locals would be limited to 1 or two 4 ball slots a day and visitors where the target wanted it exclusive with no locals once it was up and running. they were hoping to tap into the City trader market. they had lobbed for a london city flight, so you could get from central london to the course is less that and hour and be back in your pad in London that night. Fin crash and that never happened.

With the other courses they have built a 9 hole, but no evidence of anything else happening at the moment, esp with both Mark Parsinen and Arnold Palmer both passing away. its been up for sale for a few years now, and according to someone who works there losing £1m plus a year

 

[patricks148]

Dash it all - but expected...I'll just have to play Muir of Ord (where one of my cousins play) and Fortrose and Rosemarkie (half mile from another cousin). And they look to be my sort of clubs.

nothing wrong with either of those, if you are a good boy i might even take you on Nairn

 

[evemccc]

i don't think its down to the courses, more the councils local dev initiatives. when CS was being built i was working for VS and we all got invited for a tour... not a game mind just a tour. i asked if there were going to be offers for locals as it was already branded around at £175 and back in 2008 that was a lot. the guy (who later went on to be out club sec) told me locals would be limited to 1 or two 4 ball slots a day and visitors where the target wanted it exclusive with no locals once it was up and running. they were hoping to tap into the City trader market. they had lobbed for a london city flight, so you could get from central london to the course is less that and hour and be back in your pad in London that night. Fin crash and that never happened.

With the other courses they have built a 9 hole, but no evidence of anything else happening at the moment, esp with both Mark Parsinen and Arnold Palmer both passing away. its been up for sale for a few years now, and according to someone who works there losing £1m plus a year

Good point.


Well in contrast to some on here, I think there is v little benefit to the local community of very rich people flying in and out, spending zero money locally and only spending the hours playing golf in the local area, without visiting any of the local BnBs and cafes etc.
There is no money going into the community, into normal people’s businesses...only to a probably equity-fund owned golf course, or if they do stay the night it’ll be some multinational five star hotel or whatever.

If more normal people from around the country played the top courses, the amount of people utilising locally owned normal restaurants,
Pubs and BnBs of the coastal links course towns would increase dramatically

Pitching primarily to wealthy Americans or Japanese undermines this.
But according to some on here, incentivising green fees to British people who would then travel, play golf, and pump some money into local businesses is nationalistic bordering Nazism..

 

[SaintHacker]

How many train stops until you go from being local to a tourist?

And do Formby and Freshfield count as one?

 

[backwoodsman]

I think that folk just need to get their heads around the concept & practices of the luxury goods & services market. Certain high quality things - be they cars, watches, clothes, wine or even golf courses - are regarded as the epitome of their kind and have a certain "cachet" about them. Consequently, the providers market them at whatever the customer is prepared to pay. And as long as there are enough willing to pay it, then they will continue to do so. And there is no real incentive for them to offer discounts - which can indeed have a negative effect as a discount can imply that the "product" is truly worth the higher price.

I applaud those courses - predominantly Scottish - that do offer discounted rates to locals but dont expect it to be widespread. And were stuck with it. But then, we all know there are "products" out there that dont quite have the "cachet" - but which are generally so good that mere mortals cant tell the difference - and which have a sensible price tag attached

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Roughly 60% of the course listed in the OP are member's clubs and several of the remainder are, effectively, municipals.

Should the question, therefore, not be directed at the members of those clubs or the council tax payers? Do they want more visitors, sometimes making it even harder for them to play when they wish?

As has been said on other threads regarding dress codes etc; "It's their club and they are the ones who should decide on how it's run."

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Just one question - do you think staff wages, course maintenance, machinery etc is in line with the inflation of the green fees, or even close?

I very much doubt it.

Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740 (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.

 

[jim8flog]

Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.



.

This does highlight one of the poor bits of information on the original post. Using the rate of inflation for comparison. The rate of inflation is a very selective pot of costs mainly incurred by households and most business costs would not be in the 'basket'

From https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/infl...erpriceinflationbasketofgoodsandservices/2020

CPIH weight,
Jan 2020 (per cent) Observed variation
in price changes¹ Representative items²
(per cent of total) 1Food and non-alcoholic beverages7.9Medium24 2Alcohol and tobacco3.1Low4 3Clothing and footwear5.2Medium11 4Housing and household services29.5Low5 5Furniture and household goods5.1Medium10 6Health2.1Low3 7Transport12.1Medium6 8Communication1.7Medium2 9Recreation and culture13.6Medium17 10Education2.4Low1 11Restaurants and hotels9.6Low7 12Miscellaneous goods and services

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Minimum wage changes over those years have been large, so for example from introduction in 1999 it has gone from £3.60 to £8.72 comparing top rate, bottom rate gone from £3.00 to £5.30(over 18s). New auto enrolment pension requirements have kicked in as well.

There have been two forms of inflation that have hit golf clubs, that is the individual amount and the absolute. Therefore as an example at these top clubs, they are paying more per hour for wages plus they will be employing more staff (at a guess) than in 1999, to ensure the experience is better? They will also be spending money now that they once would not have (so for better quality equipment, course upgrades, stupid packs for visitors)

Whilst I do not have figures for the courses such as Birkdale over the years, I do have accounts for 2000 to 2019 for a top 100 England Golf course and here are some highlights :-

Insurance went from 6,474 to 12,962
Admin wages went from 37,907 to 74,338
Pensions went from 2,592 to 13,717 (auto enrolment provisions)
Rates went from 23,648 to 38,067
Professional went from 18,127 to 36,834
Greens wages went from 114,073 to 231,081
Other course costs went from 58,418 to 78,603
House wages went from 44,665 to 163,740 (not sure if in 1999 the club maybe has a franchise setup, hence the silly big increase, there must be a reason?)
House Light/Heat/cleaning/laundry went from 38,639 to 20,938 (that one is a big surprise to me)
Sky went from zero(?) to 6,026
Depreciation went 61,697 from to 107,071

On income side :-

Membership income from 299,464 to 648,817
Green fee from 89,673 to 87,039
Entrance fees from 33,959 to 40,219

Wont list anymore as, probably doesn't change alot tbh. This is just a bog standard top 100 members club (Ive not ever been a member of btw but many have played it), this is not like top flight clubs we are taking about and the increases in spending they would have incurred in those 20 years but it gives an indication of how some of the costs have increased over the 20 years. It is always handy to compare relatively.

Interestingly absolute green fees have remained static at this club for the 20 years, pass not sure why.

As I say I am not taking sides on this, just thought from your question it would be interesting to lay out some of the costs/income for a top 100 england golf club for reference.

I'm gonna hazard a guess that the green fee income is as a result of a chosen strategy to cut down on opportunities for visitors to play whilst increasing the cost of the green fee.

It seem strange that a course that is on a top 100 list wouldn't be able to increase it's income from visitors green fee's other than by their own choice. Only taking myself as an example, but every year, what do I look at mainly when it comes to new courses? It most definitely starts with top 100, and with the ever increasing use of internet, social media and "importance" put on lists like this, I don't think I'm alone in wanting to tick off courses that appear on these lists.

 

[howbow88]

Just a quick aside - The Old Course could definitely charge far more if they wanted to. £195 is too expensive for me personally, but rightly or wrongly, Americans would pay double that to play just once at 'The Home Of Golf'. It is on nearly every golfer's bucket list and in fairness to whoever is doing the pricing for it, they aren't absolutely taking the Michael at the moment... That may well change one day though.

 

[patricks148]

Just a quick aside - The Old Course could definitely charge far more if they wanted to. £195 is too expensive for me personally, but rightly or wrongly, Americans would pay double that to play just once at 'The Home Of Golf'. It is on nearly every golfer's bucket list and in fairness to whoever is doing the pricing for it, they aren't absolutely taking the Michael at the moment... That may well change one day though.

i'd agree, def not as out of reach as some, but when you think TOC is subsidizing 7 courses, shows just how much the TOC must generate

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

nothing wrong with either of those, if you are a good boy i might even take you on Nairn

And I'd offer a personal reciprocal for when you're next down in Surrey - only 10hrs drive...

 

[patricks148]

And I'd offer a personal reciprocal for when you're next down in Surrey - only 10hrs drive...

you would be safe with that one....

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I'm gonna hazard a guess that the green fee income is as a result of a chosen strategy to cut down on opportunities for visitors to play whilst increasing the cost of the green fee.

It seem strange that a course that is on a top 100 list wouldn't be able to increase it's income from visitors green fee's other than by their own choice. Only taking myself as an example, but every year, what do I look at mainly when it comes to new courses? It most definitely starts with top 100, and with the ever increasing use of internet, social media and "importance" put on lists like this, I don't think I'm alone in wanting to tick off courses that appear on these lists.

When I have looked at golf course accounts generally(mainly normal based courses, not top 100 ones), for some I was surprised just how low green fee/visitor income are, like less than £50,000. In addition something I did notice, was that clubs that made profits in say 2000, by 2010 many were struggling to make money or making losses, again mainly local clubs. Some kick this trend as they promote themselves or are in destination locations(normally near other link golf courses).

Out of interest, do you personally (out of this forum), know of many people that are looking to 'tick' off the top courses on these lists ?

Me personally, out of probably 50ish people I know who play golf. I can think of one guy that treats himself for his birthday to goto Woburn each year and another that every now and then visits a top course as a treat.