Handicap manipulation - how to address

[PaulMdj]

That’s sort of happening to me now.
Years ago I looked forward to the comps.
Now if I don’t play in a couple I’m just not bothered.
The low guys have started having their own sweep at least they have a chance of winning.

Are any of these low guys also anyone of those low guys maintaining a vanity handicap to ensure entry in Opens were they really aren’t good enough?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

As a way of encouraging low handicappers back into club comps, give them the choice between the net comp or a gross comp?
Over the years I've played at clubs where they had divisions but the overall winner was best nett. Not brilliant.
I've also played at clubs where they had a mandatory nett entry fee and an extra fee for the gross comp so you had to pay twice. Not ideal
Then there's the clubs where they had no gross prize at all. Waste of time.

''I'd like to enter the comp please''
Pro: Certainly, that will be £3. Gross or nett ?

Sounds great

Then you have 2 people enter the gross comp because the plus 4 guy from Us college is back etc etc

It’s simple


People pay and entry fee into the comp and those fees are then spread across the prizes to include a best gross prize

 

[Swango1980]

Education about WHS is an ongoing process that requires regular comms - it's not something that was just done in the run-up to implementation in 2020 and then forgotten about. EG made another big push last year for clubs to educate their members regarding WHS responsibilities - perhaps your club missed that.

You make it sound like you want us to force players to submit scores, which I'm sure is not the case.

Nope, I'm absolutely positive that if the Union or England Golf were to review how our Club operates, they would be one of the "better" clubs at fulfilling their responsibilities. But, when you have several hundred members, all with different motivations, golf playing time, etc, education can only get you so far. You will still ultimately have a good number of golfers who fail to submit many scores for a variety of reasons.

I'm not sure what makes you think I want you to force penalties on players? I was simply implying your point on this particular matter was largely irrelevant. I had already highlighted that clubs can put conditions on clubs. I've never said clubs shouldn't educate their members either. Yours does (well done), and so do many others.

Of course, there will be plenty of clubs that are lacking in educating members. The last away course I played, on their notice board next to the PSI terminal, they had a sheet showing the SSS of the course, several sheets showing all member handicaps, dated 2019 and a dead butterfly that has been there for at least a year (according to a member I was playing with). Annual membership is £40, and I suspect many join the club just to get a handicap so they can play in Opens. I wouldn't have the confidence this club is acting as diligently as your club in regards to handicaps and education of its members, but it is still an affiliated golf club, so I guess they must be ticking the boxes

 

[wjemather]

That just shows you how long the better players have been feeling disadvantaged

*entitled

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not a new phenomenon either, many swindles have always had their own system , often very aggressive to make sure there is a good spread of winners.
This was happening long before whs

Both the swindles I mainly play in used the old system before hand

 

[Thintowin]

*entitled

Seriously? Too many clutching at straw replies.

 

[bobmac]

*entitled

No
Disadvantaged, or maybe unrewarded, or unrecognised, or ignored.

Cambridge Dictionary
entitled

feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:

 

[wjemather]

Seriously? Too many clutching at straw replies.

No
Disadvantaged, or maybe unrewarded, or unrecognised, or ignored.

Cambridge Dictionary
entitled

feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:

Feeling that you deserve to win for no other reason than you are a better player, and then complaining about not winning (especially with the significant advantage afforded under previous systems), is entitlement.

 

[AussieKB]

Fancy thinking that because you have worked on your game, hence your handicap goes down and then getting beat by someone on a high handicap who does not give a toss, shoots 26 one day and 40 plus the next.....and you get upset, yes we are the fools.

 

[bobmac]

Feeling that you deserve to win for no other reason than you are a better player, and then complaining about not winning (especially with the significant advantage afforded under previous systems), is entitlement.

I'll try again...
Cambridge Dictionary
feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it

 

[Thintowin]

Feeling that you deserve to win for no other reason than you are a better player, and then complaining about not winning (especially with the significant advantage afforded under previous systems), is entitlement.

There are those who feel entitled and, at the other end of the scale, those with a chip on their shoulder. Often each end can't see the masses of people in between.

 

[Dunesman]

I'm sorry I don't really understand your point.
The same whine about high handicaps is as old as the hills
Here are some examples.....
]

Stuff from over decade, same old story

Only very superficially though. The complaint is the same. It was not valid then. But now it is. Low indexes have gone from having a win advantage (whether they knew it or not), to a win disadvantage. Did EG publicise this as a consequence of the move to WHS ?
While one might have little sympathy for the loss of the advantage (I have none), to change from one state to the other has not gone unfelt. And unlike 10 years ago, the claims are valid and indeed, acknowledged by WHS, but with a like it or lump, its the best we can do, attitude. Nobody should be surprised that there are u happy golfers and controversy. Would golfers, and their club representatives have rowed in with WHS if this aspect had been well communicatef and widely understood ?

 

[D-S]

Of course WHS will evolve, but unreasonably penalising newer golfers isn't something I can see happening.


We're talking about players not trying from the start, or not trying for the rest of the round after a bad hole or two, especially early on in a round; we're not talking about "not giving 100% to their next shot" or even a few shots.


All members get a quarterly reminder of their responsibilities under the RoH via the regular newsletter, and those with few scores submitted get a further email following the annual review. There is nothing accusatory and no threats of penalties, but part of the comms does advise that lack of scores over the past 12-24 months may affect eligibility for competition entry and prizes.

I thought I had read that you are not in favour of an x scores over y period eligibility criteria for competitions or have I misread or misunderstood previous posts?

 

[Dunesman]

I thought I had read that you are not in favour of an x scores over y period eligibility criteria for competitions or have I misread or misunderstood previous posts?

Would fewer scores than 8, from still 20, not just add more volatility to handicaps? And so more golfers in a field playing with very temporarily 'extra' shots, even with no deliberate dishonest motivation ?

 

[wjemather]

I thought I had read that you are not in favour of an x scores over y period eligibility criteria for competitions or have I misread or misunderstood previous posts?

We have no such restrictions but other clubs do, so we try to ensure our members are aware of that should they be interested in entering opens.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

There is no “massaging” - a system was put into place to ensure everyone has a fair chance of competing

I’ve played in societies and groups that have their own systems, with rules like you lose a couple of shots if you win and don’t get them back for a few events.

It’s massaging handicaps to spread the winning.

Yeup, because there's a lot of skill involved in winning a raffle

Whereas there is loads of skill involved in scoring 42 points off a 36 handicap

Which has just made me think of a rule I would apply to club comps. You can’t claim first place if you blob a hole, no matter what the score.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I’ve played in societies and groups that have their own systems, with rules like you lose a couple of shots if you win and don’t get them back for a few events.

It’s massaging handicaps to spread the winning.

Whereas there is loads of skill involved in scoring 42 points off a 36 handicap

Which has just made me think of a rule I would apply to club comps. You can’t claim first place if you blob a hole, no matter what the score.

I suspect many do the same which maybe highlights there are too many with handicaps too high

 

[wjemather]

I'll try again...
Cambridge Dictionary
feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it

"...or deserve it, just because of who you are"

Cherry-picking the definition really isn't helping your case.

 

[AussieKB]

Would fewer scores than 8, from still 20, not just add more volatility to handicaps? And so more golfers in a field playing with very temporarily 'extra' shots, even with no deliberate dishonest motivation ?

In OZ we started with 10 from 20......now down to 8 from 20, we were the guinea pigs......
can you imagine what it would have been like if you had the original system....that we got lumped with.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

"...or deserve it, just because of who you are"

Cherry-picking the definition really isn't helping your case.

I’m pretty sure that “low handicaps” or scratch players don’t feel entitled as you state more than maybe it’s ok to have some rewards for those that play the best golf during a competition