Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Thintowin]

More and more, it sounds like you're still longing for the pre-1983 system, where golfers were anchored to a best score they could barely hope to get close to ever again; many simply gave up trying and unregulated society/group handicaps were the norm to keep things 'fair'.

No one went up pre 1983. At least very few did.

The 1983 change meant that the odd person would go up occasionally after a long run where they failed consistently to get within their handicap. Most cat 1 and 2 golfers stayed on their handicap for years.

This WHS change was to make it easier for higher handicappers to win. Presumably by making it easier for them to go up to a high enough handicap so they could compete with these low guys.

The irony is that the system hasn't kept the low guys where they were. They've mostly got lower. Someone who tells me they play off +1 WHS is usually not what you'd expect from a +1. The high handicapper has, in general, got more shots to play with. The whole thing is stretched out. Someone somewhere has ballsed this up.

Is it because they've applied a linear solution to a nonlinear problem?

Who's more likely to shoot 10 under? 40 handicapper or scratch?

 

[Thintowin]

Well it’s working as designed.

If something has been designed to work against you is it inevitable that you will eventually stop using it?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

1 - Absolutely no different to previous systems, except WHS reacts faster (sometimes too fast) to better scores without the manual intervention that was needed previously.
2 - Players who do not try to make their best score are failing to fulfil their responsibilities under the RoH. The solution is the committee identifying and educating them (scores may also be taken out of the HI calculation by marking them as unacceptable).
3 - These are players not fulfilling their responsibility to submit scores to provide evidence of their demonstrated ability. Committees should be regularly (at least annually) communicating with players who are not submitting scores.

Do you ever think that there is issues with the system as opposed to just the players

“Players not fulfilling their responsibilities”

Bit of a cop out no ?

 

[Slab]

If someone has physically changed then that's different, take that out of the scenario for now.

So long enough to be deemed permanent. And taking a lesson hasn't fixed a problem. You've shown you can't possibly get back to your former self.

Could be the yips or duck hooks. Would you want your handicap to go up if it's something you can fix?

Most people are better off working through the problem and giving them a few shots back makes little difference. Of course there are a few where that might work. Depends a lot on the personality.

So that's why I think your handicap going upwards should be taken more seriously and not an inevitable consequence of the handicap system.

That kinda sound like an administrative nightmare for player and club. Imagine players having to keep receipts for lessons (I’m sure every pro hands these out) I assume some form of log book to show practice hours post lesson that the proshop/range stamps for you. And/or produce medical reports to validate a diminished physical capacity at the annual review and the associated computer/written records

Meantime player either pulls out of comps or needlessly pays to play while waiting for his case to be adjudicated, all to guard against someone getting a couple of shots increase

Oh and I absolutely 100% believe there are cheats/bandits out there using the system to get a faux increase but maybe you’ve gone a bit sledgehammer/walnut with that

 

[RichA]

Who's more likely to shoot 10 under? 40 handicapper or scratch?

Why is any scratch golfer entering a competition with 40-handicappers and imagining any handicapping system could be devised that would make serious competition equitable?
Such a contest could only be considered recreational fun-time golf.

 

[Colin L]

........Handicaps have nothing to do with driving improvement to better golf.

Absolutely. The desire to play better golf would be there without any handicapping system. What handicapping does do is to give us a way of measuring our success in improving or, in the case of elderly gents like me, measuring our success in slowing the rate of decline. Many will say that they are working on lowering their handicap but better golf is the true driver.

 

[wjemather]

I'm assuming that WHS will not remain exactly as it is for the rest of time, and things will change for the better, based on experiences from using the system. Just like happened in the previous system. So, perhaps some of my ideas are not ridiculous? Especially point 1. Just because the previous system was poor at giving appropriate handicaps to new golfers, resulting in many of them shooting great unbeatable scores in comps, that doesn't mean it has to be an issue for the rest of time.

Of course WHS will evolve, but unreasonably penalising newer golfers isn't something I can see happening.

In regards to Point 2, of course golfers need to try their absolute best. But, clearly when a player is in a bad head space after a poor shot, good luck in scolding them for not giving 100% to their next shot. I've seen many golfers implode. Even myself, when I've made a mistake in the past, my anger and frustration has resulted in a poor execution of shots over the next period of time (I've even seen pros lose their head, and miss short putts, and they are playing more money and their careers). It is ridiculous to think that all Committees (or even any Committee) can identify every moment on the golf course where a player hasn't given it their all over certain shots, cancelling the players score and educating them. To me, that is just not a sensible suggestion in the slightest.

We're talking about players not trying from the start, or not trying for the rest of the round after a bad hole or two, especially early on in a round; we're not talking about "not giving 100% to their next shot" or even a few shots.

And, with regards to Point 3, how many Committees contact every member who hasn't submitted a certain number of scores in a year? What is YOUR Club's policy? To all member who haven't submitted x scores, do you write to all of them? To you explain you will start introducing extra penalties to them if they don't start submitting more scores? What if there is a good reason they haven't submitted scores. Maybe they are injured. Maybe they still play, but not fully fit and don't want to submit scores yet. Maybe they just don't play much anymore.

All members get a quarterly reminder of their responsibilities under the RoH via the regular newsletter, and those with few scores submitted get a further email following the annual review. There is nothing accusatory and no threats of penalties, but part of the comms does advise that lack of scores over the past 12-24 months may affect eligibility for competition entry and prizes.

 

[clubchamp98]

If something has been designed to work against you is it inevitable that you will eventually stop using it?

That’s sort of happening to me now.
Years ago I looked forward to the comps.
Now if I don’t play in a couple I’m just not bothered.
The low guys have started having their own sweep at least they have a chance of winning.

 

[wjemather]

Why is any scratch golfer entering a competition with 40-handicappers and imagining any handicapping system could be devised that would make serious competition equitable?
Such a contest could only be considered recreational fun-time golf.

Which is all >>99% of recreational amateur handicap competitions really are. 'Serious' handicap competitions are played within handicap brackets.

 

[clubchamp98]

Do you ever think that there is issues with the system as opposed to just the players

“Players not fulfilling their responsibilities”

Bit of a cop out no ?

When in dought blame someone else.!

I find it funny they don’t want to disadvantage new and improving golfers but don’t mind doing it to the low cappers.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

When in dought blame someone else.!

I find it funny they don’t want to disadvantage new and improving golfers but don’t mind doing it to the low cappers.

The idea that players must continue to play their best after a blow out hole etc is farcical

Once someone has a mare on a hole that’s it , they will just have a bit of fun then etc

Some are so ingrained into the system they fail to see why many of us play the game

 

[Thintowin]

That’s sort of happening to me now.
Years ago I looked forward to the comps.
Now if I don’t play in a couple I’m just not bothered.
The low guys have started having their own sweep at least they have a chance of winning.

Yep, same thing happening at my club.

I wonder if WHS is really all about the dismantling of the club game? If so, it's succeeding so far.

 

[wjemather]

That’s sort of happening to me now.
Years ago I looked forward to the comps.
Now if I don’t play in a couple I’m just not bothered.
The low guys have started having their own sweep at least they have a chance of winning.

The obvious questions are: why don't they lobby the club to implement divisions and/or a scratch prize? And if they have, why haven't the club done so?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The obvious questions are: why don't they lobby the club to implement divisions and/or a scratch prize? And if they have, why haven't the club done so?

Because members then moan that they are paying towards a “prize” that they have no chance of winning

 

[Thintowin]

Because members then moan that they are paying towards a “prize” that they have no chance of winning

And many want to play without having to enter their cards into WHS. We are intending to run a weekly 'roll up' sweep this year using our pre WHS handicaps. Just for a bunch of 5 and under.

 

[clubchamp98]

The obvious questions are: why don't they lobby the club to implement divisions and/or a scratch prize? And if they have, why haven't the club done so?

There you go .
Blaming the club again instead of the system.
A better question is “ why install a handicap system that eliminates the chances of the better players in the sport”?

No other sport would treat its better players like this.

 

[clubchamp98]

Because members then moan that they are paying towards a “prize” that they have no chance of winning

The low men already are.

 

[wjemather]

Because members then moan that they are paying towards a “prize” that they have no chance of winning

Then they probably shouldn't be entering the optional scratch sweep.

 

[Thintowin]

There you go .
Blaming the club again instead of the system.
A better question is “ why install a handicap system that eliminates the chances of the better players in the sport”?

No other sport would treat its better players like this.

I'd like to know the percentage of single figure golfers in the UK and Ireland who feel WHS is fair.

It's not a big number, I know that for sure. My own experience suggests it is a tiny minority.

 

[Swango1980]

Of course WHS will evolve, but unreasonably penalising newer golfers isn't something I can see happening.


We're talking about players not trying from the start, or not trying for the rest of the round after a bad hole or two, especially early on in a round; we're not talking about "not giving 100% to their next shot" or even a few shots.


All members get a quarterly reminder of their responsibilities under the RoH via the regular newsletter, and those with few scores submitted get a further email following the annual review. There is nothing accusatory and no threats of penalties, but part of the comms does advise that lack of scores over the past 12-24 months may affect eligibility for competition entry and prizes.

1. I mean, the system already "penalises" new players by subtracting 2.0 from their best Score Diff, if they have 3 scores. So, my suggestion is simply a more advanced way to deal with it, than just a generic 2.0 cut for any golfer, no matter how good their best Score Diff is.

2. No, you are just talking about a golfer that doesn't try from the start. This is absolutely not the sort of golfer I was referring to. I was talking about a golfer who's head goes at some point during the round, and the knock on effect it has on their score after that. A golfer who doesn't give 100% on even a few shots (let alone a goof few holes) can see them throwing away shots like confetti. Their score could be 2, 3, 4, 5 shots worse than they could have scored if they stayed focused. You may think such increases in score have no real impact on Score Diff. But, they definitely do. There is also the golfer who's head completely goes right they way until the end of the round.

3. Well, I'm sure your club is one of the very few that goes to that extent in personally reminding all players to submit more scores. That being said, who cares if you have no real solution to those that don't? You are ultimately having to send these reminders out, so clearly your Club has an "issue" with golfers submitting few scores, and so these golfers will have handicaps that don't reflect ability. You haven't done anything extra about this, and I already mentioned in my initial comment that conditions can be placed on competitions to ensure golfers have a minimum amount of scores, and so that is ultimately the solution at the moment to these types of golfers. Which may well be appropriate, if clubs are placing these conditions to their comps.