Handicap manipulation - how to address

[jim8flog]

Under the old system I don't remember when the scores were 45 and above......

Maybe getting old my memory is failing.

Pre WHS

I have won of our trophy comps with 45 points *

Came second in another with 44 points

* and I won this one again post WHS with 42points and a higher handicap.

 

[Thintowin]

re bold; Yeah that's what I said because you said WHS doesn't support that philosophy, but it does, doesn't it?

re red; entirely diff question
Of course it should go up, I'm sure you even believe that? The bone of contention is; at what rate & over what period is deemed acceptable by our peers

I said players were previously incentivised to get to their ability. Getting there and playing to it would mean playing well and getting 36 points was a competitive score.

WHS does not incentivise to get their handicap down to their ability. You've done that and hats off to you for it. While you're playing at your ability level you might finish halfway down the leaderboard if you're lucky.

 

[Dunesman]

Golf used to be a game where each player was incentivised to get to his or her own ability ceiling..

This is incorrect, and possibly colouring some of your view of WHS.
Both handicap systems are unconcerned with driving ability. That is up to the individual to decide, according to their skill, motivation, time availability etc.
The purpose of a handicap is so regardless of performance level over a period, on a given day, players of different abilities can play against each other in an equitable way. Whoever plays best, relative to their own benchmark, wins.
Handicaps have nothing to do with driving improvement to better golf.

 

[jim8flog]

Your handicap has gone down because you have become a better player. Would have under the previous system also.

My question to you is do you think your handicap should now go up if you have a run of bad form?

How long is the run of bad form you are suggesting?

 

[Slab]

My gut feeling is that more people have handicaps that are too high for their ability and that’s reflected in a lot of the scores we are getting

You could be right

It feels like for everyone coming down there's a handful going up. (some) Guys I used to aspire to play like now have higher handicaps but they walk, talk, swing & look exactly the same to my eyes.

But my perception may well be flawed

 

[Swango1980]

My gut feeling is that more people have handicaps that are too high for their ability and that’s reflected in a lot of the scores we are getting

Possibly very true for certain types of golfers. The two types I can think of are:

1. New Golfers with limited scores on their record. There is a very high chance such golfers will rapidly improve / become familiar with the course after they submit their initial 3 scores, so there is a high probability that along the way, they will submit some fantastic scores, which could very well come in competitions. In my opinion, this could be easily addressed by subtracting bigger penalties for having limited scores on your record (bigger penalties for those with a higher Index), gradually reducing these penalties as more scores come in, until they have all 20 scores. Ultimately, a player can have an officially Index after 3 scores, but to "earn" a higher Index to compete against others, they ultimately need to be encouraged to submit more scores and more scores.

2. Extremely inconsistent golfers. There are golfers out there that, when their head is in the game, they can play really good golf for 18 holes. But, the vast majority of rounds, their head goes after a bad shot, the wheels come off and the scores go dramatically upwards. A good number of these scores can creep into their top 8, and if they play often enough a quick run of bad form can wipe away older scores in their top 8 in a hurry. Not sure the exact solution, but I'm sure a detailed automatic analysis of such scoring trends can be set up, and such players identified and more strongly highlighted for an adjustment?

There may be another type of golfer, with 20+ scores on their record, but they are mostly from a long time ago. Perhaps that golfer has actually improved (though they may also have got worse), and they just don't enter scores anymore for whatever reason. I suppose more clubs are putting various conditions on who can enter comps based on score frequency, Comp Rounds, etc. so that can go some way to address this anyway.

 

[Thintowin]

This is incorrect, and possibly colouring some of your view of WHS.
Both handicap systems are unconcerned with driving ability. That is up to the individual to decide, according to their skill, motivation, time availability etc.
The purpose of a handicap is so regardless of performance level over a period, on a given day, players of different abilities can play against each other in an equitable way. Whoever plays best, relative to their own benchmark, wins.
Handicaps have nothing to do with driving improvement to better golf.

A side effect of a good system is that it provides a reliable measure for the individual. WHS does not.

One other point. I've played for many decades. I've noticed a change in mood since WHS. Previously winners would be vocally acknowledged and congratulated in the clubhouse. In recent years text messages would be sent with congratulations etc. Other members would be interested in what your handicap was and say well done if someone was cut a shot or two.

This behaviour is no longer noticeable, if it happens at all.

 

[Slab]

I said players were previously incentivised to get to their ability. Getting there and playing to it would mean playing well and getting 36 points was a competitive score.

WHS does not incentivise to get their handicap down to their ability. You've done that and hats off to you for it. While you're playing at your ability level you might finish halfway down the leaderboard if you're lucky.

Maybe we shouldn't mix the incentive to get better (which is just 'what is my lowest ever gross score') with WHS or even competition golf.
They carry an obvious link/impact on each other for comps only, but getting better and the incentive to get better at golf does not require any handicap system

edit; oh and you're spot on, I'm humped for winning a comp for the foreseeable future but will still give it a go as a sideline to trying to get better

 

[Dunesman]

A side effect of a good system is that it provides a reliable measure for the individual. WHS does not.

This is also a misunderstanding. A handicaping systems SOLE purpose us to provide a measure of a golfers level.
It is not a side effect.
It has no other higher purpose.

 

[Thintowin]

How long is the run of bad form you are suggesting?

If someone has physically changed then that's different, take that out of the scenario for now.

So long enough to be deemed permanent. And taking a lesson hasn't fixed a problem. You've shown you can't possibly get back to your former self.

Could be the yips or duck hooks. Would you want your handicap to go up if it's something you can fix?

Most people are better off working through the problem and giving them a few shots back makes little difference. Of course there are a few where that might work. Depends a lot on the personality.

So that's why I think your handicap going upwards should be taken more seriously and not an inevitable consequence of the handicap system.

 

[Thintowin]

This year I'll have the yips, next year I'll win everything.

 

[wjemather]

Possibly very true for certain types of golfers. The two types I can think of are:

1. New Golfers with limited scores on their record. There is a very high chance such golfers will rapidly improve / become familiar with the course after they submit their initial 3 scores, so there is a high probability that along the way, they will submit some fantastic scores, which could very well come in competitions. In my opinion, this could be easily addressed by subtracting bigger penalties for having limited scores on your record (bigger penalties for those with a higher Index), gradually reducing these penalties as more scores come in, until they have all 20 scores. Ultimately, a player can have an officially Index after 3 scores, but to "earn" a higher Index to compete against others, they ultimately need to be encouraged to submit more scores and more scores.

2. Extremely inconsistent golfers. There are golfers out there that, when their head is in the game, they can play really good golf for 18 holes. But, the vast majority of rounds, their head goes after a bad shot, the wheels come off and the scores go dramatically upwards. A good number of these scores can creep into their top 8, and if they play often enough a quick run of bad form can wipe away older scores in their top 8 in a hurry. Not sure the exact solution, but I'm sure a detailed automatic analysis of such scoring trends can be set up, and such players identified and more strongly highlighted for an adjustment?

There may be another type of golfer, with 20+ scores on their record, but they are mostly from a long time ago. Perhaps that golfer has actually improved (though they may also have got worse), and they just don't enter scores anymore for whatever reason. I suppose more clubs are putting various conditions on who can enter comps based on score frequency, Comp Rounds, etc. so that can go some way to address this anyway.

1 - Absolutely no different to previous systems, except WHS reacts faster (sometimes too fast) to better scores without the manual intervention that was needed previously.
2 - Players who do not try to make their best score are failing to fulfil their responsibilities under the RoH. The solution is the committee identifying and educating them (scores may also be taken out of the HI calculation by marking them as unacceptable).
3 - These are players not fulfilling their responsibility to submit scores to provide evidence of their demonstrated ability. Committees should be regularly (at least annually) communicating with players who are not submitting scores.

 

[wjemather]

If someone has physically changed then that's different, take that out of the scenario for now.

So long enough to be deemed permanent. And taking a lesson hasn't fixed a problem. You've shown you can't possibly get back to your former self.

Could be the yips or duck hooks. Would you want your handicap to go up if it's something you can fix?

Most people are better off working through the problem and giving them a few shots back makes little difference. Of course there are a few where that might work. Depends a lot on the personality.

So that's why I think your handicap going upwards should be taken more seriously and not an inevitable consequence of the handicap system.

More and more, it sounds like you're still longing for the pre-1983 system, where golfers were anchored to a best score they could barely hope to get close to ever again; many simply gave up trying and unregulated society/group handicaps were the norm to keep things 'fair'.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

This year I'll have the yips, next year I'll win everything.

It’s quite sad that your only measure of enjoyment seems to be winning when there is so much joy to be had by just playing the game.

 

[Thintowin]

More and more, it sounds like you're still longing for the pre-1983 system, where golfers were anchored to a best score they could barely hope to get close to ever again; many simply gave up trying and unregulated society/group handicaps were the norm to keep things 'fair'.

Not at all. Quite happy to go back to the previous HI calculation. Even with a couple of tweaks.

I remember the old system well but I had no issues when we moved. I can't recall anyone at my club having any issues either. Now virtually the whole club says it's a bag of s#£&!

 

[AussieKB]

It’s quite sad that your only measure of enjoyment seems to be winning when there is so much joy to be had by just playing the game.

Agree.....being a single figure golfer I just love finishing 7th or 8th, another top ten, am sure the Authorities will be as pleased as me.

 

[Slab]

Agree.....being a single figure golfer I just love finishing 7th or 8th, another top ten, am sure the Authorities will be as pleased as me.

That’s not solely the prerogative of a single figure golfer though is it

 

[Swango1980]

1 - Absolutely no different to previous systems, except WHS reacts faster (often too fast) to better scores without the manual intervention that was needed previously.
2 - Players who do not try to make their best score are failing to fulfil their responsibilities under the RoH. The solution is the committee identifying and educating them (scores may also be taken out of the HI calculation by marking them as unacceptable).
3 - These are players not fulfilling their responsibility to submit scores to provide evidence of their demonstrated ability. Committees should be regularly (at least annually) communicating with players who are not submitting scores.

Apologies

I was simply identifying some thoughts and potential solutions to some issues that a lot of regular golfers seem to raise.

I'm assuming that WHS will not remain exactly as it is for the rest of time, and things will change for the better, based on experiences from using the system. Just like happened in the previous system. So, perhaps some of my ideas are not ridiculous? Especially point 1. Just because the previous system was poor at giving appropriate handicaps to new golfers, resulting in many of them shooting great unbeatable scores in comps, that doesn't mean it has to be an issue for the rest of time.

In regards to Point 2, of course golfers need to try their absolute best. But, clearly when a player is in a bad head space after a poor shot, good luck in scolding them for not giving 100% to their next shot. I've seen many golfers implode. Even myself, when I've made a mistake in the past, my anger and frustration has resulted in a poor execution of shots over the next period of time (I've even seen pros lose their head, and miss short putts, and they are playing more money and their careers). It is ridiculous to think that all Committees (or even any Committee) can identify every moment on the golf course where a player hasn't given it their all over certain shots, cancelling the players score and educating them. To me, that is just not a sensible suggestion in the slightest.

And, with regards to Point 3, how many Committees contact every member who hasn't submitted a certain number of scores in a year? What is YOUR Club's policy? To all member who haven't submitted x scores, do you write to all of them? To you explain you will start introducing extra penalties to them if they don't start submitting more scores? What if there is a good reason they haven't submitted scores. Maybe they are injured. Maybe they still play, but not fully fit and don't want to submit scores yet. Maybe they just don't play much anymore.

 

[Neilds]

A side effect of a good system is that it provides a reliable measure for the individual. WHS does not.

One other point. I've played for many decades. I've noticed a change in mood since WHS. Previously winners would be vocally acknowledged and congratulated in the clubhouse. In recent years text messages would be sent with congratulations etc. Other members would be interested in what your handicap was and say well done if someone was cut a shot or two.

This behaviour is no longer noticeable, if it happens at all.

Is that WHS or just how people have changed?

 

[clubchamp98]

Agree.....being a single figure golfer I just love finishing 7th or 8th, another top ten, am sure the Authorities will be as pleased as me.

Well it’s working as designed.