Handicap manipulation - how to address

[D-S]

I'd like to know the percentage of single figure golfers in the UK and Ireland who feel WHS is fair.

It's not a big number, I know that for sure. My own experience suggests it is a tiny minority.

I don’t think this exists as a statistic but you do know that single figure golfers are relatively small % of golfers in UK and Ireland in the first place, a mere 10-15%.

 

[bobmac]

If the golfer has a choice between entering a gross comp or a nett comp, several things would happen.
1. The number of comp entries would increase.
2. Higher h/caps wouldn't complain that a very small part of their entry fee would go to a gross prize that they have no chance of winning.
3. Lower h/caps wouldn't complain that all of their entry fee would go to nett prizes that they have no chance of winning.
4. No need to change/tweak WHS

That's 4 wins

 

[Dunesman]

Education about WHS is an ongoing process that requires regular comms - it's not something that was just done in the run-up to implementation in 2020 and then forgotten about. EG made another big push last year for clubs to educate their members regarding WHS responsibilities.

Did these comms include explaining how low indexes are indeed now at a disadvantage in competition with higher handicappers, and that that is a good development and benefit of WHS ?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If the golfer has a choice between entering a gross comp or a nett comp, several things would happen.
1. The number of comp entries would increase.
2. Higher h/caps wouldn't complain that a very small part of their entry fee would go to a gross prize that they have no chance of winning.
3. Lower h/caps wouldn't complain that all of their entry fee would go to nett prizes that they have no chance of winning.
4. No need to change/tweak WHS

That's 4 wins

Why would the number of comp entries increase ?

With people having the choice then the amount of money going into the net prizes would reduce

 

[Thintowin]

I don’t think this exists as a statistic but you do know that single figure golfers are relatively small % of golfers in UK and Ireland in the first place, a mere 10-15%.

Then I'd like to know what percentage of members who have served on committee at golf clubs are, or have been, single figures.

 

[bobmac]

"...or deserve it, just because of who you are"

Cherry-picking the definition really isn't helping your case.

I quoted the full definition first, I just thought the first part was more relevant and as golf doesn't care who you are, the 2nd part didn't seem relevant

 

[Dunesman]

In OZ we started with 10 from 20......now down to 8 from 20, we were the guinea pigs......
can you imagine what it would have been like if you had the original system....that we got lumped with.

Would that not be better. The higher the sample proportion, the lower the volatility ? Higher handicaps yes, but that is corrected by having a multiplier of 0.8 or whatever to normalise things again

 

[wjemather]

Then I'd like to know what percentage of members who have served on committee at golf clubs are, or have been, single figures.

Disproportionately high.

 

[bobmac]

Disproportionately high.

 

[PaulMdj]

I suspect many do the same which maybe highlights there are too many with handicaps too high

Are you sure? Haven’t you told us about you being off a + handicap in one of your swindles/roll up/society?

 

[Dunesman]

Why would the number of comp entries increase ?

With people having the choice then the amount of money going into the net prizes would reduce

Every 'should' feel they have a fair chance in a handicap competition. Our gross comps are only sometimes competitive - when our plus 4 man doesnt play. He is better than 10 or sp who are off +1 to -2. If he plays, he wins invariably. Nobody above scratch woulf enter if he is playing. Othet clubs may have a different profile at the low end, but for us, it just isnt competition.

 

[PaulMdj]

If the golfer has a choice between entering a gross comp or a nett comp, several things would happen.
1. The number of comp entries would increase.
2. Higher h/caps wouldn't complain that a very small part of their entry fee would go to a gross prize that they have no chance of winning.
3. Lower h/caps wouldn't complain that all of their entry fee would go to nett prizes that they have no chance of winning.
4. No need to change/tweak WHS

That's 4 wins

You’ve been beating this drum on here for nearly 14 years and everytime you tell us the solution, others come on and explain divisions or the simple lack of Club golfers that would enter a gross and/or nett comp on a weekend.

 

[D-S]

Then I'd like to know what percentage of members who have served on committee at golf clubs are, or have been, single figures.

I deal with a lot of handicap committees and single figure golfers are over represented (i.e. a higher proportion on the committee versus their proportion of the club membership) on the overwhelming majority.

 

[PaulMdj]

Why would the number of comp entries increase ?

With people having the choice then the amount of money going into the net prizes would reduce

Wasting your time, we had this full debate just last May.

GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

I don't need to play for money at all. Why?...the prize money really isn't that much....not worth getting excited about. I don't play harder because I paid £4 to enter a medal. I'd be fine with having a comp that costs no money to enter and just keep tabs/lists on how everybody did.

forums.golfmonthly.com

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Are you sure? Haven’t you told us about you being off a + handicap in one of your swindles/roll up/society?

Yes I have to play off plus 1 and 0 in the two swindles - thats one better than my course HC on the yellow of 0

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Every 'should' feel they have a fair chance in a handicap competition. Our gross comps are only sometimes competitive - when our plus 4 man doesnt play. He is better than 10 or sp who are off +1 to -2. If he plays, he wins invariably. Nobody above scratch woulf enter if he is playing. Othet clubs may have a different profile at the low end, but for us, it just isnt competition.

So if you split the comps you aren’t going to get more entries - if anything you will get less prize money


The simple answer imo is a small gross prize within all the other nett prizes on offer

 

[Thintowin]

I deal with a lot of handicap committees and single figure golfers are over represented (i.e. a higher proportion on the committee versus their proportion of the club membership) on the overwhelming majority.

Disproportionately high.

That tells us what?

It tells us that those who are more engaged and experienced in a club, and willing to give up their time, are more likely to be above average golfers. Good golfers generally stick at this game for life and know a bit about how a club runs.

This is my biggest concern with WHS. This core of club golfers may well be keeping many golf clubs in business. Erode that and UK and Ireland club golf gradually turns into something else.

 

[bobmac]

Why would the number of comp entries increase ?

With people having the choice then the amount of money going into the net prizes would reduce

Because the low players would start playing comps again

You’ve been beating this drum on here for nearly 14 years and everytime you tell us the solution, others come on and explain divisions or the simple lack of Club golfers that would enter a gross and/or nett comp on a weekend.

I don't need anyone to explain divisions to me and as I said in post 1,102 I was a member of a club that ran a very popular separate gross comp. Just a shame you had to pay for the net as well.
And as for not many would enter, my experience was practically everyone 5 or less entered.
It was and still is my opinion that it's more rewarding to beat all your fellow Cat ones than to shoot 3 under gross in the nett and not even getting a mention.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Because the low players would start playing comps again

I don't need anyone to explain divisions to me and as I said in post 1,102 I was a member of a club that ran a very popular separate gross comp. Just a shame you had to pay for the net as well.
And as for not many would enter, my experience was practically everyone 5 or less entered.
It was and still is my opinion that it's more rewarding to beat all your fellow Cat ones than to shoot 3 under gross in the nett and not even getting a mention.

Low players are already playing comps

At most clubs if you don’t play in the comp that day you don’t get to play

I and all the low guys at the club still enter all the comps

 

[bobmac]

Low players are already playing comps

At most clubs if you don’t play in the comp that day you don’t get to play

I and all the low guys at the club still enter all the comps

Maybe that's the case at your club but there are several posts on here of low players having their own swindles instead of playing nett comps