Handicap manipulation - how to address

[jim8flog]

Maybe that's true but most clubs didn't entertain it. WHS threw it into focus.

That was was for 'club handicaps' which came in before cats 5 and 6 were introduced.

As per WJE all new players handicaps were based upon the max of 54.

We had to do a review of all players with a handicap of 28 and revise their handicaps accordingly. Single biggest increase was a male player who was increased to 40.

We did a simple thing of treat them the same as new player and give them a revised handicap based upon their best 3 cards in the preceding year.

 

[rulefan]

Maybe that's true but most clubs didn't entertain it. .

I was on the relevant EG Committee at that time and many clubs were asking how to ensure it was being done properly. My experience was that it was well used and managed properly by handicap committees. The rules were enforced much more closely than now. At least at some clubs it would seem.

 

[bobmac]

You are right saying it doesn't but the facts do.

Are facts and statistics the same thing?

 

[Thintowin]

Are facts and statistics the same thing?

You raise a valid point. Many arguments on here appear to be made on the basis that a given set of statistics must be correct. Some of us aren't convinced.

 

[KenL]

That depends on what you consider to be fair. Pre-WHS handicapping, particularly in GB&I, was always designed to favour the lower handicapper, as it was felt that better players should have an advantage and potential for exceptional scoring should be strongly mitigated against - which was considered fair.

Unfortunately, we now have the situation where even less than exceptional scores are locked upon with suspicion, and that is partly because people have yet to adjust to a different balance of equity and are mostly unaware it has significantly changed.

Is that a matter of fact or opinion?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Agree entirely. The system is cause of the issues around manipulation. Trying to say it always went on is just not true. It may have gone on in extreme cases but not on the scale we see now and it is perceived as being rife. Many are doing it without thinking too hard about it because it's a free-for-all handicap system.

Some are even doing it to prove a point in the hope it will be changed

Cheating is a human vice…you need to ask why, if what you say is true, more players are cheating.

Just because the shopkeeper leaves the till drawer open as he goes for something in the back does not give me a right or carte blanche to steal from that till - I am, or should be, constrained from doing so by my values and morals.

And if there is more ‘bang per cheat’ then what is that ‘bang’…and if it is ultimately prize money then we immediately spot the source of the problem…money - and the associated human vices…those of greed and selfishness.

 

[Thintowin]

Cheating is a human vice…you need to ask why, if what you say is true, more players are cheating.

Just because the shopkeeper leaves the till drawer open as he goes for something in the back does not give me a right or carte blanche to steal from that till - I am, or should be, constrained from doing so by my values and morals.

And if there is more ‘bang per cheat’ then what is that ‘bang’…and if it is ultimately prize money then we immediately spot the source of the problem…money - and the associated human vices…those of greed and selfishness.

Why so many is a good question.

Maybe it's a reaction to having been cheated out of something?

 

[jim8flog]

Are facts and statistics the same thing?

quote

"There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics"

 

[Thintowin]

Just because the shopkeeper leaves the till drawer open as he goes for something in the back does not give me a right or carte blanche to steal from that till - I am, or should be, constrained from doing so by my values and morals.

Those of us pushing for the WHS to be fixed would close the shopkeeper's drawer rather than just ignore the problem!

 

[Imurg]

Those of us pushing for the WHS to be fixed would close the shopkeeper's drawer rather than just ignore the problem!

Implying that anyone not opposed to WHS is a cheat...?

 

[Thintowin]

Implying that anyone not opposed to WHS is a cheat...?

Not at all.

Ignoring the problem drawer, or not seeing it as a problem, is not cheating.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

You raise a valid point. Many arguments on here appear to be made on the basis that a given set of statistics must be correct. Some of us aren't convinced.

And yet, like so many before you. You have not managed to produce any evidence or statistics to back up any of your claims!

Why so many is a good question.

Maybe it's a reaction to having been cheated out of something?

So because you ‘feel’ cheated. It’s ok to cheat?

 

[upsidedown]

Those of us pushing for the WHS to be fixed would close the shopkeeper's drawer rather than just ignore the problem!

Would you be happy with GP score only being allowed at the club by pre registering in the pro shop and score inputted via a terminal, in other words do away with GP scores on the app?

 

[IanM]

Would you be happy with GP score only being allowed at the club by pre registering in the pro shop and score inputted via a terminal, in other words do away with GP scores on the app?

No, that would mean I actually have to visit a golf course to enter a score! (if you see what I mean!)

Hey, this thread has meandered through all sorts of stuff.

Regardless of handicap system in place, there needs to be effective monitoring of scores submitted.

Some Clubs are on top if it, some are not. A massive increase in GP Cards makes it harder to police. That's just a fact of life, it's simple maths. More cards for clubs not able to review effectively will make it worse, not better.

Hence, don't be surprised when some Clubs start implementing measures to circumvent a problem (perceived or otherwise) The handicapping system in place, the % allowances used etc are separate issues.

 

[bobmac]

Just because the shopkeeper leaves the till drawer open as he goes for something in the back does not give me a right or carte blanche to steal from that till - I am, or should be, constrained from doing so by my values and morals.

First guy walks in and tells the shopkeeper his till is open
Second guy walks in and sees the till is open and helps himself.
Third guy walks in looking for an open till.

The impression I get is the WHS have just moved the till a little nearer the front door

 

[Thintowin]

Would you be happy with GP score only being allowed at the club by pre registering in the pro shop and score inputted via a terminal, in other words do away with GP scores on the app?

The fact that more dubious GP cards are being done is obviously linked to the flaky HI calculation in WHS. Too easy to get a hike quickly. Replace this airy fairy calculation with the previous calculation and that would cease.

 

[upsidedown]

The fact that more dubious GP cards are being done is obviously linked to the flaky HI calculation in WHS. Too easy to get a hike quickly. Replace this airy fairy calculation with the previous calculation and that would cease.

That HI go up and down more quickly is not a problem for me and I embrace it on currently 1.9. Certainly at our place we don't have serial repeat winners with higher HI and there certainly is no trend for one or two players with high HI winning regulary , in deed I'd say at the lower end of HI there are a couple of guys who seem to win every year .

 

[Thintowin]

That HI go up and down more quickly is not a problem for me and I embrace it on currently 1.9. Certainly at our place we don't have serial repeat winners with higher HI and there certainly is no trend for one or two players with high HI winning regulary , in deed I'd say at the lower end of HI there are a couple of guys who seem to win every year .

I therefore assume you are confused as to why there have been, and continue to be, so many articles on the divisive WHS?

 

[clubchamp98]

Cheating is a human vice…you need to ask why, if what you say is true, more players are cheating.

Just because the shopkeeper leaves the till drawer open as he goes for something in the back does not give me a right or carte blanche to steal from that till - I am, or should be, constrained from doing so by my values and morals.

And if there is more ‘bang per cheat’ then what is that ‘bang’…and if it is ultimately prize money then we immediately spot the source of the problem…money - and the associated human vices…those of greed and selfishness.

I think some are doing it as more playing the system because others are doing it.
They may not see it as cheating.

 

[rulie]

Three best actions. Not more whining.