Handicap manipulation - how to address

[D-S]

We are doing something…apparently GP cards entered using the MyEG app do not show on a players record in iG (the system my club uses) and so the club has issues monitoring number of competition rounds in current 20 (there being a criteria for entry around that for some comps). These rounds are included in a players WHS HI calc, they just don’t show on iG - apparently. We are requesting (nicely) that members do not use the MyEG app for recording GP rounds. I don’t play enough GP rounds to know what the club might expect me to do.

So how are members expected to enter rounds at away courses?

 

[rulefan]

So why were divisions used/needed at many clubs under UHS?

My club certainly didn't need them but used them to share the winnings around.

 

[D-S]

My club certainly didn't need them but used them to share the winnings around.

So they needed them to share the winnings around?

 

[Colin L]

"Playing the system" presumably means submitting falsified scores?

 

[wjemather]

That might be what the book says but I'd argue that your index is a measure of form if you put regular cards in.
Back in early October I " demonstrated my ability" by shooting a score differential of 2.3 and my index was 5.1
By the end of October my form had slipped and my index had risen to 6.6.
Doesn't that show "form" rather than "demonstrated ability "?
Using demonstrated ability I should be much lower......

Ability is demonstrated over many rounds over a period of time, not just one score.
While a small minority of golfers will submit scores often enough to cycle their most recent 20 within a couple of months and as such could be said to have a HI that reflects form (if form lasts that long), the vast majority will not and their HI will be based on both recent and much older scores.

 

[Imurg]

And that is one area in which WHS falls down..
Scores from 2,3 or 4 years ago have no business defining your HI..
I don't know what the time limit should be but currently it's stupid.

 

[wjemather]

And that is one area in which WHS falls down..
Scores from 2,3 or 4 years ago have no business defining your HI..
I don't know what the time limit should be but currently it's stupid.

The old system was far worse in that regard.
A time limit would necessitate a minimum number of scores over that same period (i.e. 20) or per year.

 

[Thintowin]

So why were divisions used/needed at many clubs under UHS?

There were a couple of divisions in many run of the mill competitions under uhs but the trophy competitions worked fine.

 

[Dunesman]

You can only cheat by submitting a false score. That is a dishonest action by the individual for which he/she bears the whole responsibility. It has been more than adequately pointed out that clubs have it within their powers to impose preventative measures.

You dont have to be dishonest, or a cheat to build in a few shots with WHS though, and that is one of its most significant weaknesses.

All you have to do is submit GP scores. Nobody is going to give them the attention of effort that people do in competition rounds. Walk back to play a second ball when you lose one ? No. Spend much time looking for a ball ? No, just play on. Take care with short putts ? No, just hit or miss, and get on with the round. All these things add to ones GP score, and inflate it compared to a competition one. Increasing ones index. But this isnt cheating. There is nothing even the most attwntive committee can do about it. There is nothing to penalise. Its simply following the official line to put in as many scores as possible.
The really scrupulous golfer today will refuse to put in GP scores.

The only adequate preventative measure for GP index infkation is the removing any GP scores for the calculation of a handicap that will be used in competition.

 

[Imurg]

You dont have to be dishonest, or a cheat to build in a few shots with WHS though, and that is one of its most significant weaknesses.

All you have to do is submit GP scores. Nobody is going to give them the attention of effort that people do in competition rounds. Walk back to play a second ball when you lose one ? No. Spend much time looking for a ball ? No, just play on. Take care with short putts ? No, just hit or miss, and get on with the round. All these things add to ones GP score, and inflate it compared to a competition one. Increasing ones index. But this isnt cheating. There is nothing even the most attwntive committee can do about it. There is nothing to penalise. Its simply following the official line to put in as many scores as possible.
The really scrupulous golfer today will refuse to put in GP scores.

The only adequate preventative measure for GP index infkation is the removing any GP scores for the calculation of a handicap that will be used in competition.

So all GP cards are suspect....is that what you're saying?
Because if it is then you're indulging in conversational gonads.....
In the words of Bkbmac....I'm out and you can fester in your own trolling for as long as you like.....

 

[jim8flog]

And, I presume, the players with a handicap of 36.

Yes

Funnily enough we got more complaints from the ladies about it than the men, in fact only one man complained because he would not be able to go in to opens at other clubs but it was not long before his handicap went above 28 anyway.

They guy who went up to 40 won his next comp but never beat his handicap again. He was well in to 40s handicap under the WHS before he died.

 

[jim8flog]

You dont have to be dishonest, or a cheat to build in a few shots with WHS though, and that is one of its most significant weaknesses.

All you have to do is submit GP scores. Nobody is going to give them the attention of effort that people do in competition rounds. Walk back to play a second ball when you lose one ? No. Spend much time looking for a ball ? No, just play on. Take care with short putts ? No, just hit or miss, and get on with the round. All these things add to ones GP score, and inflate it compared to a competition one. Increasing ones index. But this isnt cheating. There is nothing even the most attwntive committee can do about it. There is nothing to penalise. Its simply following the official line to put in as many scores as possible.
The really scrupulous golfer today will refuse to put in GP scores.

The only adequate preventative measure for GP index infkation is the removing any GP scores for the calculation of a handicap that will be used in competition.

Two of the swindles I play in insist on putting out and you have to put in a GP card to be in the kitty. The vast majority of my cards in 2024 come from playing in these swindles.

 

[Colin L]

You dont have to be dishonest, or a cheat to build in a few shots with WHS though, and that is one of its most significant weaknesses.

All you have to do is submit GP scores. Nobody is going to give them the attention of effort that people do in competition rounds. Walk back to play a second ball when you lose one ? No. Spend much time looking for a ball ? No, just play on. Take care with short putts ? No, just hit or miss, and get on with the round. All these things add to ones GP score, and inflate it compared to a competition one. Increasing ones index. But this isnt cheating. There is nothing even the most attwntive committee can do about it. There is nothing to penalise. Its simply following the official line to put in as many scores as possible.
The really scrupulous golfer today will refuse to put in GP scores.

The only adequate preventative measure for GP index infkation is the removing any GP scores for the calculation of a handicap that will be used in competition.

As I said, the only way in which you can manipulate a handicap is by falsifying scores. Everything you describe is a falsification of a score.
The honest golfer who returns GP scores plays by the rules.

 

[clubchamp98]

So why were divisions used/needed at many clubs under UHS?

We only had two divisions under UHS 0-12 and 12 and above.
We have a lot more now.

 

[IanM]

Ability is demonstrated over many rounds over a period of time, not just one score.
While a small minority of golfers will submit scores often enough to cycle their most recent 20 within a couple of months and as such could be said to have a HI that reflects form (if form lasts that long), the vast majority will not and their HI will be based on both recent and much older scores.

I wonder what national analysis of the average lapsed time of the "last 20" would show?

I'm seeing such a diversity of behaviours and number of cards entered, I couldn't guess with any certainty.

Regardless, my feeling is that whs is more fluid and hence more "current form" indicative.

My gut feel is different from yours about how many cards go in. But it's only gut feel and I play with folk who play at least 3 times a week

But as you say, it depends on the lapsed time between card 1 and card 20, which will vary greatly across golfers.

On reflection the correct answer about whether whs is "current form" or "demonstrated ability" might be, "it depends!"

 

[D-S]

We only had two divisions under UHS 0-12 and 12 and above.
We have a lot more now.

Yet people on here say that the need for divisions proves the ‘failure’ of WHS - I assume these same people who want a return to UHS would not have divisions?

 

[D-S]

There were a couple of divisions in many run of the mill competitions under uhs but the trophy competitions worked fine.

So why were they needed for ‘run of the mill’ competitions?

 

[rulie]

You dont have to be dishonest, or a cheat to build in a few shots with WHS though, and that is one of its most significant weaknesses.

All you have to do is submit GP scores. Nobody is going to give them the attention of effort that people do in competition rounds. Walk back to play a second ball when you lose one ? No. Spend much time looking for a ball ? No, just play on. Take care with short putts ? No, just hit or miss, and get on with the round. All these things add to ones GP score, and inflate it compared to a competition one. Increasing ones index. But this isnt cheating. There is nothing even the most attwntive committee can do about it. There is nothing to penalise. Its simply following the official line to put in as many scores as possible.
The really scrupulous golfer today will refuse to put in GP scores.

The only adequate preventative measure for GP index infkation is the removing any GP scores for the calculation of a handicap that will be used in competition.

I would consider what you have described as both dishonest and cheating, and should be dealt within the groups and the clubs. Someone is attesting that score and they are also at fault. It’s part of peer review imo.

 

[Thintowin]

So all GP cards are suspect....is that what you're saying?
Because if it is then you're indulging in conversational gonads.....
In the words of Bkbmac....I'm out and you can fester in your own trolling for as long as you like.....

He's absolutely correct. You can act shocked or whatever but he's right.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yet people on here say that the need for divisions proves the ‘failure’ of WHS - I assume these same people who want a return to UHS would not have divisions?

Divisions then were more stable.
Handicaps didn’t move as much as they do now.
Must be a nightmare with so many changing division every week under WHS.
But all done by computer so very little checking.