Grenfell “Bonfire”

[Deleted member 18121]

I'll echo others above.....a sick attempt at a "joke", you question their common sense and intelligence for the act, BUT, I dont believe that any subject or event in history is outside the realms of humor and again as with all things in life it is ok to be offended, but thats your problem not theirs.

Am interested to see the outcome.

 

[Dasit]

Very poor taste joke

But where do we cross the line. Is it right to burn effigy of Trump, May, Cameron, Boris etc

Who gets to decide on what where the line is

 

[Hobbit]

Very poor taste joke

But where do we cross the line. Is it right to burn effigy of Trump, May, Cameron, Boris etc

Who gets to decide on what where the line is

A High Court Judge. In theory, well versed in the law of the land, and will have years of experience. It doesn't guarantee a perfect result but there's always a court of appeal. The law itself will have been formed, and refined and refined and then further refined as society changes and precedents are set. The law always lags behind current thinking but that is, equally, a good thing, i.e. no knee jerk reactions.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Regardless of the ignorant stupidity and callousness - surely you can only cause public offence if you do something in public or publicise something offensive. If anyone is responsible for causing public offence or distress it is the person who made the video public.

Unfortunately I come across (thankfully albeit only relatively infrequently) similarly sick 'jokes' at the expense of women, LGBT and ethnic minorities - these 'jokes' being told or shown to me by blokes who I think should, or would expect to, know better.

If they were all 'in' on the posting of the video on-line then all are complicit - and it is just a sad indictment on where we are that they clearly thought it was an OK thing to do and just a laugh - OK because they thought it funny - with little or no consideration for the victims of the disaster and those badly affected. In fact I'd like to think that the majority if not all of us were shocked and quite affected by it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'll echo others above.....a sick attempt at a "joke", you question their common sense and intelligence for the act, BUT, I dont believe that any subject or event in history is outside the realms of humor and again as with all things in life it is ok to be offended, but thats your problem not theirs.

Am interested to see the outcome.

There is nothing intrinsically funny about burning a model of Grenfell Tower - that these idiots thought it funny is a quite separate matter.

 

[patricks148]

Very poor taste joke

But where do we cross the line. Is it right to burn effigy of Trump, May, Cameron, Boris etc

Who gets to decide on what where the line is

the whole primes of Bonfire night is burning a an effigy of a catholic, at least it didn't start off as hung drawn and quarter night

 

[User62651]

Is a bit sick and you'd wonder why people (adults particularly) would do that, one assumes to get a cheap laugh at others misfortune. Despite that is it really criminal activity? There were people/victims of all colours in Grenfell I think.

If I put an effigy of Trump on a bonfire people would see it as funny, if I put an effigy of Obama on a bonfire I'd most likely be in the news as a racist, even if I claimed they were up there just for being Americans presidents. People form views very quickly, can often get the wrong idea, sometimes just because they want to I think.
Happens on this forum quite often, people telling you what you meant even though only you really know what you meant, even if your means of expression are not perfect.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is a bit sick and you'd wonder why people (adults particularly) would do that, one assumes to get a cheap laugh at others misfortune. Despite that is it really criminal activity? There were people/victims of all colours in Grenfell I think.

If I put an effigy of Trump on a bonfire people would see it as funny, if I put an effigy of Obama on a bonfire I'd most likely be in the news as a racist, even if I claimed they were up there just for being Americans presidents. People form views very quickly, can often get the wrong idea, sometimes just because they want to I think.
Happens on this forum quite often, people telling you what you meant even though only you really know what you meant, even if your means of expression are not perfect.

In your example historical context matters hugely given the fact that white supremacists perpetrated many lynchings of blacks - and with the KKK and such as Charlottesville showing that sense of superiority being still prevalent, I don't think the comparison is particularly valid.

 

[IanM]

It is valid... an effigy of one President on a fire is ok, but another itsnt? Dont be daft.

Regardless.... you'd have to be some form of sicko/thicko/weirdo to make light (or even political gain?) of a terrible fire that killed people.......

 

[Blue in Munich]

I

Very poor taste joke

But where do we cross the line. Is it right to burn effigy of Trump, May, Cameron, Boris etc

Who gets to decide on what where the line is

I’d suggest that as no actual physical harm has come to May, Trump Cameron or Boris and there is an expectation of a degree of ridicule when they enter public office that burning their effigies would be viewed as a bit of harmless mockery.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I


I’d suggest that as no actual physical harm has come to May, Trump Cameron or Boris and there is an expectation of a degree of ridicule when they enter public office that burning their effigies would be viewed as a bit of harmless mockery.

And what if their children or family said they were upset or offended by what they've witnessed?

 

[User 99]

A High Court Judge. In theory, well versed in the law of the land, and will have years of experience. It doesn't guarantee a perfect result but there's always a court of appeal. The law itself will have been formed, and refined and refined and then further refined as society changes and precedents are set. The law always lags behind current thinking but that is, equally, a good thing, i.e. no knee jerk reactions.

A high court judge ?? What's a high court judge got to do with an alleged trivial offence ?

 

[clubchamp98]

Stupid and in extremely bad taste.

But... I'm left wondering...

What if perpetrators were not white.
What if it was a political character.
What if it was the union jack
...etc, etc.
Plenty of examples of people burning stuff in public as a protest that many would find disturbing. Taking it forward as a criminal matter may be OTT.

There must still be a limit there was a huge one of Boris burnt on the news.
Many politicians have been burnt over the years.

It’s disgusting but a crime I don’t think so.
That took time to make I wonder did it cross the mind of the creator that this might be wrong.
But for so many adults present at the party did anyone question it.
We will never know.
It’s sick and they need shaming.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Are people really trying to compare this to burning an effigy of a politician ?!

People died ffs - 74 people of various colour race and religion died through no fault of their own and now sick deranged scum are mocking that with both disgusting and racist behaviour - it’s a public order offence and I hope they all get what they deserve when the punishments are handed out to them.

 

[User 99]

Are people really trying to compare this to burning an effigy of a politician ?!

People died ffs - 74 people of various colour race and religion died through no fault of their own and now sick deranged scum are mocking that with both disgusting and racist behaviour - it’s a public order offence and I hope they all get what they deserve when the punishments are handed out to them.

You need to go have a lie down in a dark room, nobody, as far as I'm aware,no one died in the burning of that last night, it was a laugh...to them, in very poor taste and you nor anyone else would have been any the wiser had it not been posted on twitter by someone who was there....in simple terms..get over yourself.

 

[clubchamp98]

Are people really trying to compare this to burning an effigy of a politician ?!

People died ffs - 74 people of various colour race and religion died through no fault of their own and now sick deranged scum are mocking that with both disgusting and racist behaviour - it’s a public order offence and I hope they all get what they deserve when the punishments are handed out to them.

I don’t think for one moment they are comparing it to burning effergies of political leaders .
It’s just there’s no other reference point to compare it to.

This in my opinion has hit a new low for the British public!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don’t think for one moment they are comparing it to burning effergies of political leaders .
It’s just there’s no other reference point to compare it to.

This in my opinion has hit a new low for the British public!

Why do people need to “compare” it to anything ? There seems to be a need to scratch away at it to find some sort of “justification” that it’s just a “joke” gone wrong.

It’s a incident that should be treated solely on its own and no comparisons should be made - don’t need a reference point

They crossed a line and for me it’s a crime that should be punished - i suspect they aren’t even bothered about what they did more that they got caught.

 

[IanM]

I agree Phil...not sure if what happened is "actually" illegal, (if is isnt , it should be) wheras the morality/humanity angle etc is mindblowing.

Comparisions however are interesting, not to say if "A" is better or worse than "B"... but from a perspective about how people see things and what folk will get angry about and what they won't. Double standards and prejudices fly in all directions. (from both sides of the political divide)

 

[robinthehood]

Has anyone been charged with offences relating to the actual fire yet?

 

[Hobbit]

I agree Phil...not sure if what happened is "actually" illegal, (if is isnt , it should be) wheras the morality/humanity angle etc is mindblowing.

Comparisions however are interesting, not to say if "A" is better or worse than "B"... but from a perspective about how people see things and what folk will get angry about and what they won't. Double standards and prejudices fly in all directions. (from both sides of the political divide)

Its a good argument, is it illegal? It falls under Section 5 of the public order law. Equally, it can, under EU law(section 10 of... I can't remember) be considered an infringement of the freedom of speech as it is deemed not to have any named victim. Its referred to as a victimless crime. However Public order offences are also there to uphold the morals and social norms of a society. And it is the argument that it attacks the moral code of a society that keeps it as a criminal act, not a civil act.

What one person sees as horrendous, another might see as trivial. Some will see black humour in it, whilst others may say that trivialising the deaths of 74 people is beneath contempt.