Penalty Scores

[sawtooth]

So now that we are back to competition golf under the new WHS handicapping system, how will you be applying penalty scores to golfers?

I had 4 cards yesterday, 1 NR'd a single hole but otherwise carded a full medal score, 3 others however abandoned scoring altogether on hole 7, hole 9 and hole 15.

I've read through all of the WHS guidance and its not very clear.


"
Reason : Penalty Score Non-valid reason (e.g. memory or not realising a score had to be returned in such situations as injury, failing light, dangerous weather etc.)
Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the current Handicap Index should be submitted to the WHS Platform (i.e. an Adjusted Gross Score which would be equivalent to the Course Rating + Course Handicap).

Reason: Possible attempt to keep handicap low
Penalty Score : A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the highest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

Reason: Possible attempt to build a handicap
Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the lowest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

"

Above is all well and good but its really hard to tell what the genuine motives are for people.

For now, I think I will write to each player and just remind them of their responsibilities. Having a bad day is not an acceptable reason for not carding a score. Injury is however, so they should state that on the card. I intend to keep a record of names (not sure if HandicapMaster has a report for this or not) and will probably look to take action if the same names keep offending. When do you decide enough is enough though?

One part of me is saying that we need to meet our obligations to WHS, another part is saying why are we telling people to carry on playing golf when they are having a bad day and making spoiling enjoyment for others? I'm a little confused by it all, if someone really wanted to manipulate the system they could still just deliberately card doubles, triples, quadruples and complete all holes, and avoid detection so what's the point of it all?

 

[jim8flog]

A player when completing a card starts a hole but does not finish it you should recorded it as NR if they do not even start a hole it should be recorded as NS.

NRs will be treated as nett double bogey.

NS will be subject to a penalty score.

I no longer administer cards so it would be interesting to see if the entry of NS automatically applies penalty scores.

The players who stopped after 7 and 9 holes have not scored enough holes for handicap purposes in the first place so I would just ditch their cards (Rule 2.2a) (or DQ with no score recorded)

With the player not recording scores after 14 holes I would apply penalty scores on the basis of

If the reason for a player not playing a hole, or holes, is considered invalid, the
Handicap Committee may consider applying a penalty score (see Rule 7.1).

I agree with the view that we play for fun and having a bad day is to be accepted but a note should be kept to see if you have players who do it regularly to avoid the handicap alterations. I would not be writing to them unless a pattern is observed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So now that we are back to competition golf under the new WHS handicapping system, how will you be applying penalty scores to golfers?

I had 4 cards yesterday, 1 NR'd a single hole but otherwise carded a full medal score, 3 others however abandoned scoring altogether on hole 7, hole 9 and hole 15.

I've read through all of the WHS guidance and its not very clear.


"
Reason : Penalty Score Non-valid reason (e.g. memory or not realising a score had to be returned in such situations as injury, failing light, dangerous weather etc.)
Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the current Handicap Index should be submitted to the WHS Platform (i.e. an Adjusted Gross Score which would be equivalent to the Course Rating + Course Handicap).

Reason: Possible attempt to keep handicap low
Penalty Score : A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the highest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

Reason: Possible attempt to build a handicap
Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the lowest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

"

Above is all well and good but its really hard to tell what the genuine motives are for people.

For now, I think I will write to each player and just remind them of their responsibilities. Having a bad day is not an acceptable reason for not carding a score. Injury is however, so they should state that on the card. I intend to keep a record of names (not sure if HandicapMaster has a report for this or not) and will probably look to take action if the same names keep offending. When do you decide enough is enough though?

One part of me is saying that we need to meet our obligations to WHS, another part is saying why are we telling people to carry on playing golf when they are having a bad day and making spoiling enjoyment for others? I'm a little confused by it all, if someone really wanted to manipulate the system they could still just deliberately card doubles, triples, quadruples and complete all holes, and avoid detection so what's the point of it all?

I wouldn’t write to anyone just because they have walked off the course because they were having a shocker - it’s a social sport for us , it’s not our job , we want to enjoy it and if someone told me that it’s my responsibility to finish my round even when playing shocking then I would think straight away that the person is a jobsworth and has zero understand of club golf and why we all play.

If people started “threatening” actions etc then I would Jack my handicap in - we are not playing for majors and millions here , it’s the monthly medal - let’s have some perspective about it all. It shouldn’t matter a blind bit a difference if someone walks in after 9 holes or continues to rock up a cricket score - I know which player I would rather play with or behind

 

[sawtooth]

I wouldn’t write to anyone just because they have walked off the course because they were having a shocker - it’s a social sport for us , it’s not our job , we want to enjoy it and if someone told me that it’s my responsibility to finish my round even when playing shocking then I would think straight away that the person is a jobsworth and has zero understand of club golf and why we all play.

If people started “threatening” actions etc then I would Jack my handicap in - we are not playing for majors and millions here , it’s the monthly medal - let’s have some perspective about it all. It shouldn’t matter a blind bit a difference if someone walks in after 9 holes or continues to rock up a cricket score - I know which player I would rather play with or behind

I hear you Phil and I wouldn't want to do it but the powers that be want us to apply sanctions for repeat offenders.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I hear you Phil and I wouldn't want to do it but the powers that be want us to apply sanctions for repeat offenders.

And the powers to be have shown many times they are very much out of touch with club golfers

If people are doing something to deliberatly manufacture their handicap in any way then that’s the time to act - and if someone does continue to walk off the course every time then it’s time to have quiet words etc but you need to look at how many actually do it regularly and what that level is - most Comp Secs know their players will have an inkling about each player who does NR

 

[wjemather]

I wouldn’t write to anyone just because they have walked off the course because they were having a shocker - it’s a social sport for us , it’s not our job , we want to enjoy it and if someone told me that it’s my responsibility to finish my round even when playing shocking then I would think straight away that the person is a jobsworth and has zero understand of club golf and why we all play.

If people started “threatening” actions etc then I would Jack my handicap in - we are not playing for majors and millions here , it’s the monthly medal - let’s have some perspective about it all. It shouldn’t matter a blind bit a difference if someone walks in after 9 holes or continues to rock up a cricket score - I know which player I would rather play with or behind

Big picture - it's about the integrity of the handicapping system. People who persistently fail to meet their responsibilities under the rules will not have a handicap that accurately reflects their ability. Simply allowing them to get away with it is unfair to the other 99.9%.

Or an alternative perspective - maybe players should view complying with their responsibilities as simply showing a little respect for the people (unpaid volunteers) who give up their time to organise competitions and administer handicaps.

 

[sawtooth]

A player when completing a card starts a hole but does not finish it you should recorded it as NR if they do not even start a hole it should be recorded as NS.

NRs will be treated as nett double bogey.

NS will be subject to a penalty score.

I no longer administer cards so it would be interesting to see if the entry of NS automatically applies penalty scores.

The players who stopped after 7 and 9 holes have not scored enough holes for handicap purposes in the first place so I would just ditch their cards (Rule 2.2a) (or DQ with no score recorded)

With the player not recording scores after 14 holes I would apply penalty scores on the basis of

If the reason for a player not playing a hole, or holes, is considered invalid, the
Handicap Committee may consider applying a penalty score (see Rule 7.1).

I agree with the view that we play for fun and having a bad day is to be accepted but a note should be kept to see if you have players who do it regularly to avoid the handicap alterations. I would not be writing to them unless a pattern is observed.

Thanks.

I dont have all the facts yet because I havent spoken to involved, 1 played has notified me that he retired injured. The 2 remaining players that gave up scoring presumably played on and did not leave the course.

Do you enter a NR for them on each hole for that wasnt scored?

At what point is a card deemed to be NS? Is it only when no card/score has come back? or is a card that shows a player that stops scoring after x holes considered to be NS?

 

[sawtooth]

And the powers to be have shown many times they are very much out of touch with club golfers

If people are doing something to deliberatly manufacture their handicap in any way then that’s the time to act - and if someone does continue to walk off the course every time then it’s time to have quiet words etc but you need to look at how many actually do it regularly and what that level is - most Comp Secs know their players will have an inkling about each player who does NR

Thats why I wanted the opinions of others because it seems to be at the discretion of the handicap sec/ Ctte.

Pardon my ignorance but do we only consider penalty scores and other sanctions based on No Scores? Do they mean absolutely no score coming back or will a card littered with NRs constitute a NS (for not being unacceptable)?

 

[wjemather]

Thanks.

I dont have all the facts yet because I havent spoken to involved, 1 played has notified me that he retired injured. The 2 remaining players that gave up scoring presumably played on and did not leave the course.

Do you enter a NR for them on each hole for that wasnt scored?

At what point is a card deemed to be NS? Is it only when no card/score has come back? or is a card that shows a player that stops scoring after x holes considered to be NS?

NR and NS are hole scores, not round scores; NR applies to holes started but not completed, and NS applies to holes not started.

Penalty scores are to be applied when a round score is not returned. If the actual scores can be ascertained, they should be entered and the penalty score can be removed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thats why I wanted the opinions of others because it seems to be at the discretion of the handicap sec/ Ctte.

Pardon my ignorance but do we only consider penalty scores and other sanctions based on No Scores? Do they mean absolutely no score coming back or will a card littered with NRs constitute a NS (for not being unacceptable)?

It will always come down to your judgement Sean - we all know our players in the club , we know each club there will be the people that will find a way to get their handicap up , some that just give up when it’s going badly and take the .1 etc

I don’t think all the answers can be given until the system has been up and running for a good 12 months.

Look at the trends , see how people are acting within the WHS - not many will have played under it

With that level of date you would see how people’s attitudes when they are playing with a card

 

[sawtooth]

NR and NS are hole scores, not round scores; NR applies to holes started but not completed, and NS applies to holes not started.

Penalty scores are to be applied when a round score is not returned. If the actual scores can be ascertained, they should be entered and the penalty score can be removed.

Apologies I was referring to NS as being no score (no card) submitted at all. I'm going to go back over the WHS paperwork but my head is already hurting.

If I see an empty box on the scorecard where a gross score for the hole should be I consider that to be a simple NR. The definition of NS as you describe is lost on me I need to go back over this stuff.

 

[jim8flog]

Apologies I was referring to NS as being no score (no card) submitted at all. I'm going to go back over the WHS paperwork but my head is already hurting.

If I see an empty box on the scorecard where a gross score for the hole should be I consider that to be a simple NR. The definition of NS as you describe is lost on me I need to go back over this stuff.

Yes it is easy to confuse NS between No Score and Not Started. There should be 2 buttons one for each on the PSI screen.

Penalty scores only apply to a NS hole as NR already has a an automatic score of nett 2 over par.

It is important that players are made aware of which of the two they should be recording on the card, PSI screen or app.

 

[wjemather]

Yes it is easy to confuse NS between No Score and Not Started. There should be 2 buttons one for each on the PSI screen.

Penalty scores only apply to a NS hole as NR already has a an automatic score of nett 2 over par.

It is important that players are made aware of which of the two they should be recording on the card, PSI screen or app.

As long as the reason for not playing the holes is valid and the minimum 10 holes have been completed, NS holes have an automatic score of net par (or net bogey for the first NS hole if less than 14 holes have been completed). (Rule 3.2)

Penalty scores apply where holes have not been played for an invalid reason, or when the round score has not been returned.

 

[Swango1980]

As long as the reason for not playing the holes is valid and the minimum 10 holes have been completed, NS holes have an automatic score of net par (or net bogey for the first NS hole if less than 14 holes have been completed). (Rule 3.2)

Penalty scores apply where holes have not been played for an invalid reason, or when the round score has not been returned.

If there are players who walk off on the front 9 more than once, would you take action? It would be a very easy way for players to bin scores if they wanted lower handicaps, and had a bad start to the round. Even if that wasn't their logic, and they were just sulking after not playing well, it would still mean they would have several missing scores from their worst 12, that would have been there had they played through their misery.

Clearly WHS believe the integrity of the system falls apart if players do this regularly. Question is, in which we have discussed elsewhere, it how will people on Committees define whether a player does this regularly or not. I suppose doing it once will unlikely receive much action, but would regular be 2, 3, 4, 5, etc times?

Incidentally, I saw the results of a local club from the weekend on HDID, they had 18 NRs. To be fair, most were only because a player had failed to finish one or 2 holes in the round. However, 3 players didn't put any scores in (All zeros in the results), and 3 or 4 players clearly stopped playing with 5-8 holes to go. So, I guess the 3 players who entered no scores will have their handicap record untouched. The 3 or 4 that stopped playing will have penalty scores added

 

[rulefan]

Committees should take action (either penalty scores and/or internal disciplinary action) if players are repeatedly and wilfully ignoring their obligations under 1.3(i).
Warn after two infringements and penalize or sanction after three.

 

[sawtooth]

Yes it is easy to confuse NS between No Score and Not Started. There should be 2 buttons one for each on the PSI screen.

Penalty scores only apply to a NS hole as NR already has a an automatic score of nett 2 over par.

It is important that players are made aware of which of the two they should be recording on the card, PSI screen or app.

On Handicap Master there's a NR button and a Not Played button.

The thing is, if a player just puts a "-" on the scorecard how am I to tell if they started the hole or not? If I see a card for example that has a "-" on holes 16 to 18, did the player just score badly on those holes or did he stop scoring from the 15th?

And whats more, why is it important to know if its a NR or NS?

I've read through the WHS paperwork again and this part is as clear as a bucket of mud to me. Does anyone know of an idiots guide that explains NR, NS and penalty scores nicely?

 

[wjemather]

On Handicap Master there's a NR button and a Not Played button.

The thing is, if a player just puts a "-" on the scorecard how am I to tell if they started the hole or not? If I see a card for example that has a "-" on holes 16 to 18, did the player just score badly on those holes or did he stop scoring from the 15th?

And whats more, why is it important to know if its a NR or NS?

I've read through the WHS paperwork again and this part is as clear as a bucket of mud to me. Does anyone know of an idiots guide that explains NR, NS and penalty scores nicely?

CONGU guidance recommends "NR", "0" or "-" for holes not completed (G3.3), and "NS" for holes not played/started (G3.2/2).

NR counts as net double-bogey for handicapping; NS counts as net par (assuming there are valid reasons for not playing those holes).

Penalty scores are also in the guidance. (G7.1b)

 

[jim8flog]

On Handicap Master there's a NR button and a Not Played button.

The thing is, if a player just puts a "-" on the scorecard how am I to tell if they started the hole or not? If I see a card for example that has a "-" on holes 16 to 18, did the player just score badly on those holes or did he stop scoring from the 15th?

And whats more, why is it important to know if its a NR or NS?

I've read through the WHS paperwork again and this part is as clear as a bucket of mud to me. Does anyone know of an idiots guide that explains NR, NS and penalty scores nicely?

The difference between the two is that a different nett score is produced for handicap purposes.

NR is an automatic nett double bogey
NS is net par

Hole not started is covered by Rule 3.2 which I think is pretty self explanatory .
Have you tried just putting in No Score for the holes and seen if the software does it automatically?

 

[Swango1980]

On Handicap Master there's a NR button and a Not Played button.

The thing is, if a player just puts a "-" on the scorecard how am I to tell if they started the hole or not? If I see a card for example that has a "-" on holes 16 to 18, did the player just score badly on those holes or did he stop scoring from the 15th?

And whats more, why is it important to know if its a NR or NS?

I've read through the WHS paperwork again and this part is as clear as a bucket of mud to me. Does anyone know of an idiots guide that explains NR, NS and penalty scores nicely?

Let us say a scorecard is submitted, but last 3 holes have a zero next to them.

That could mean:

1. They were started but player messed up and bobbed the holes
2. The player had enough after 15th, and just walked in, having not started them.

In case 1, the player gets nett double bogeys. In case 2, the player gets net pars? (Although, the WHS manual would probably suggest this was an invalid reason not to play the last 3 holes, but I assume we still give them net pars and a slap on the wrist)?

And, sawtooth makes a good point. If a committee member is entering these scores from a physical card, good luck in knowing if hole was started or not. I can't imagine all club golfers will rigidly ensure scorecards are clearly labelled up in this respect, no matter what you request of them.

I notice HDID score entry app now asks if hole was started or not when a 0 score is entered

 

[rulie]

Let us say a scorecard is submitted, but last 3 holes have a zero next to them.

That could mean:

1. They were started but player messed up and bobbed the holes
2. The player had enough after 15th, and just walked in, having not started them.

In case 1, the player gets nett double bogeys. In case 2, the player gets net pars? (Although, the WHS manual would probably suggest this was an invalid reason not to play the last 3 holes, but I assume we still give them net pars and a slap on the wrist)?

And, sawtooth makes a good point. If a committee member is entering these scores from a physical card, good luck in knowing if hole was started or not. I can't imagine all club golfers will rigidly ensure scorecards are clearly labelled up in this respect, no matter what you request of them.

I notice HDID score entry app now asks if hole was started or not when a 0 score is entered

The easiest way is to enter net pars on those holes - if the players don't like that outcome, they will tell you and you can advise them of how to do the card in the future.