Penalty Scores

[Swango1980]

The easiest way is to enter net pars on those holes - if the players don't like that outcome, they will tell you and you can advise them of how to do the card in the future.

Unless Stableford. Otherwise a player could be on an excellent score, mess up the past 3 holes and yet I give them net par.

 

[Colin L]

In tartan land, players will only be able to enter 0 for either a hole not completed or a hole not started. It will be processed as a net double bogey. It will then be up to the player to inform the Committee if he/she did not start any holes and why. If the reason for this is acceptable (such as an injury or illness), a manual adjustment can be made. If the reason is not acceptable (such as getting fed up with the rain/snow/rubbish play and coming in early for a beer) the score for handicapping remains a net double bogey.

 

[rulefan]

In tartan land, players will only be able to enter 0 for either a hole not completed or a hole not started. It will be processed as a net double bogey. It will then be up to the player to inform the Committee if he/she did not start any holes and why. If the reason for this is acceptable (such as an injury or illness), a manual adjustment can be made. If the reason is not acceptable (such as getting fed up with the rain/snow/rubbish play and coming in early for a beer) the score for handicapping remains a net double bogey.

Given that the rules make specific provision for both situations I am surprised that your otherwise clever countryfolk didn't choose to handle them differently

Will players really inform the committee?

 

[jim8flog]

The easiest way is to enter net pars on those holes - if the players don't like that outcome, they will tell you and you can advise them of how to do the card in the future.

My concern would be if the club committee scorer is putting in nett pars rather than NS there could be a situation where it produces a score in the prizes.

I no longer am do the scores on regular basis so I am interested if the software applies the penalty score automatically for handicap purposes.

Or are you saying the card is removed from the comp and entered as a 'stand alone' card?

 

[rulie]

My concern would be if the club committee scorer is putting in nett pars rather than NS there could be a situation where it produces a score in the prizes.

I no longer am do the scores on regular basis so I am interested if the software applies the penalty score automatically for handicap purposes.

Or are you saying the card is removed from the comp and entered as a 'stand alone' card?

Obviously these players are no longer in the competition, the card would only be used for handicap purposes.

 

[Colin L]

Given that the rules make specific provision for both situations I am surprised that your otherwise clever countryfolk didn't choose to handle them differently

Will players really inform the committee?

It's really no different from our previous situation whereby a player who abandoned a round had to apply the committee with a valid reason for having done so in order to have the automatic 0.1 increase to his or her handicap waived. It's not down to the players to decide if their reason for not completing a hole or holes is valid. It also meets Swango's concern in post #21.

 

[jim8flog]

Obviously these players are no longer in the competition, the card would only be used for handicap purposes.

What about a stableford comp?

 

[rulefan]

It's really no different from our previous situation whereby a player who abandoned a round had to apply the committee with a valid reason for having done so in order to have the automatic 0.1 increase to his or her handicap waived. It's not down to the players to decide if their reason for not completing a hole or hole is valid. It also meets Swango's concern in post #21.

I think the issue is around the distinction between 'hole not started' and 'hole not finished' see #24

 

[Colin L]

I think the issue is around the distinction between 'hole not started' and 'hole not finished' see #24

I think what I described takes care of Jim's concern. Clearly you cannot record an actual score like a net par or net double bogey in a competition that you did not truly achieve. By entering 0 for a hole not started or a hole not completed you ensure a DQ from a medal and no points in a stableford. For handicapping purposes, a net double bogey is recorded but if a player has not started a hole or holes and thinks he or she has a valid reason for having done so he or she can report this to the Committee for a ruling. If it is decided the reason is valid, the net double bogeys are changed to net pars and if not deemed to be valid, the net double bogeys stand. Clearly, if the reason for not starting holes is the result of a Committee action such as a 12 hole comp or abandoning a comp, players will not need to make a "claim" as the circumstances will be know and known to be valid.. My one reservation in all of this is the tedious job of changing records following an abandonment.

Judging by the small number of members who have asked in the past for the 0.1 increase to be waived, I'm not expecting any great numbers coming forward.

 

[Swango1980]

I think what I described takes care of Jim's concern. Clearly you cannot record an actual score like a net par or net double bogey in a competition that you did not truly achieve. By entering 0 for a hole not started or a hole not completed you ensure a DQ from a medal and no points in a stableford. For handicapping purposes, a net double bogey is recorded but if a player has not started a hole or holes and thinks he or she has a valid reason for having done so he or she can report this to the Committee for a ruling. If it is decided the reason is valid, the net double bogeys are changed to net pars and if not deemed to be valid, the net double bogeys stand. Clearly, if the reason for not starting holes is the result of a Committee action such as a 12 hole comp or abandoning a comp, players will not need to make a "claim" as the circumstances will be know and known to be valid.. My one reservation in all of this is the tedious job of changing records following an abandonment.

Judging by the small number of members who have asked in the past for the 0.1 increase to be waived, I'm not expecting any great numbers coming forward.

When players NR because they've had a bad day, and stop playing the round, it is common to have zeros for the final holes they did not play. More common in medal, but can happen in Stableford. Either way, the Committee need to know for sure that they did not start these final holes, rather than just had a shocker on each one and picked up during the play of each hole.

I know the above is probably not an acceptable reason not to play a hole, but that goes into another area of discipline and so forth. A local club played a competition at the weekend, which had 18 NRs. 3 had all 18 hole scores as zero on howdidido, and another 4 had the last 4 to 8 holes all zero. So, I guess for the guys with all hole scores missing, they just didn't submit a card. But, for the other 4, their committee would need to know if they just didn't bother playing the final holes (net par), or did play them but had a shocking finish and just picked up each time. Maybe they suddenly developed the sh*nks

 

[bunkerblaster]

Just taking this a step forward, when playing a stroke play round and one hole has NR next to it and the scorecard is signed off as NR, you DQ the player from the comp, not holing out on every hole, enter the scores and either hit the NR button for that hole or nett double bogey. Player had a shot on par 3 so score to be entered is 6. Just about to do this now so any help before midnight appreciated.

 

[Swango1980]

The "above" is certainly not an acceptable reason! Returning no scores is not acceptable. Nor is net par for "not bothering to play the final holes". That should result in the score not being accepted for handicap purposes at all.

Are you saying that, if a player walks in and doesn't play the last 1 or 2 holes, their scorecard will be binned and not used for handicap, even though they have played the minimum number of holes?

 

[rulefan]

When players NR because they've had a bad day, and stop playing the round, it is common to have zeros for the final holes they did not play. More common in medal, but can happen in Stableford. Either way, the Committee need to know for sure that they did not start these final holes, rather than just had a shocker on each one and picked up during the play of each hole.

I know the above is probably not an acceptable reason not to play a hole, but that goes into another area of discipline and so forth. A local club played a competition at the weekend, which had 18 NRs. 3 had all 18 hole scores as zero on howdidido, and another 4 had the last 4 to 8 holes all zero. So, I guess for the guys with all hole scores missing, they just didn't submit a card. But, for the other 4, their committee would need to know if they just didn't bother playing the final holes (net par), or did play them but had a shocking finish and just picked up each time. Maybe they suddenly developed the sh*nks

Swango1980 I'm no longer involved in the hands on operation of our club's HDID system but out of interest how do you differentiate between 'hole not started' and 'hole not finished' using howdidido score entry?

 

[Swango1980]

Swango1980 I'm no longer involved in the hands on operation of our club's HDID system but out of interest how do you differentiate between 'hole not started' and 'hole not finished' using howdidido score entry?

It only recently changed over the last week it seemed. Or at least, I noticed it last week when entering a score.

If the player enters a zero, a message comes up asking if the hole was started or not (can't remember the exact wording). You have to select one of the 2 options before moving on.

 

[Colin L]

Are you saying that, if a player walks in and doesn't play the last 1 or 2 holes, their scorecard will be binned and not used for handicap, even though they have played the minimum number of holes?

Sorry, I wrote that in haste and without thinking it through properly. I've deleted the post and am heading back to the rule book and my notes!

 

[sawtooth]

Thanks for all your input, it's highlighted to me that this part of WHS is not very well thought out.

It shouldn't be that there is so much confusion and contrasting views on how to handle the NR, NS, no score scenarios. Way too much discretion IMO , should be no more black and white than this.

One thing I know is that some players will throw in a NR every now and then and they can time it in such a way that this new bad score can displace a good score in their record (their 20th). They could get something like a 1.5 shot increase not just a .1 like with the old system.

I'll just have to make sure that there score is more or less neutral so that it won't get them a dramatic HI increase. I would have to look at their handicap record each time, this could become tedious.

I can see how players can artificially increase their HI but can someone explain how NR, NS can be manipulated to decrease someone's handicap? I'm assuming using NS to complete several holes as Net pars to boost their score?

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks for all your input, it's highlighted to me that this part of WHS is not very well thought out.

It shouldn't be that there is so much confusion and contrasting views on how to handle the NR, NS, no score scenarios. Way too much discretion IMO , should be no more black and white than this.

One thing I know is that some players will throw in a NR every now and then and they can time it in such a way that this new bad score can displace a good score in their record (their 20th). They could get something like a 1.5 shot increase not just a .1 like with the old system.

I'll just have to make sure that there score is more or less neutral so that it won't get them a dramatic HI increase. I would have to look at their handicap record each time, this could become tedious.

I can see how players can artificially increase their HI but can someone explain how NR, NS can be manipulated to decrease someone's handicap? I'm assuming using NS to complete several holes as Net pars to boost their score?

If they are having a bad round, they could quit the round before completing the minimum holes, and avoid a bad score on their record. This will ensure their worst 12 does not consist of as many bad scores, and keep their best top 8 scores on record for longer, thus keeping a lower handicap than they should have.

Of course, if a player repeatedly walks in on the front 9, then disciplinary action should be taken.

 

[rulie]

What about a stableford comp?

Agree that they would have a legitimate Stableford score in the competition for the holes that they played, but, for handicap purposes, they will have a card for 18 holes with assigned scores for the holes not played.

 

[jim8flog]

Just taking this a step forward, when playing a stroke play round and one hole has NR next to it and the scorecard is signed off as NR, you DQ the player from the comp, not holing out on every hole, enter the scores and either hit the NR button for that hole or nett double bogey. Player had a shot on par 3 so score to be entered is 6. Just about to do this now so any help before midnight appreciated.

My assumption is that you just hit the NR button and the software does the rest, as it did under the UHS.

I am a still asking the question if you hit the NS button will the software do the rest?