England Golf and General Play Scores

[cliveb]

Just seen a notice from Devon Golf that includes this:

England Golf are instituting a maximum number of acceptable General Play Scores on the handicap records of entrants to their events from this season onwards. No more than 4 General Play scores in the last 20 rounds will be acceptable for inclusion in their tournaments.

Not sure if anyone else has already discussed this - if they have, please can you point me at the relevant thread?

Seems to me that England Golf's move is an attempt to clamp down on index manipulation through submitting lots of bad general play scores.
But it's a blunt instrument that flies in the face of an expressed goal of WHS that people should put in their general play scores as often as possible.

The logistics in enforcing it seem pretty onerous. How are event organisers expected to check that every entrant conforms to this rule on the morning of a competition (given that a new general play score could easily appear on their record overnight).

It strikes me that if England Golf are concerned there's some skullduggery going on, then the simplest way to deal with it is to modify the overnight index recalculation to notice that someone's record is stuffed full of poor general play scores (compared to much better competition scores) and impose an appropriate index adjustment downwards.

 

[IanM]

Definitely something somewhere about this.

It is what happens when clubs offer big prizes at Open Days and the handicapping system adds an additional way of manipulating itself!

 

[D-S]

Just seen a notice from Devon Golf that includes this:

Not sure if anyone else has already discussed this - if they have, please can you point me at the relevant thread?

Seems to me that England Golf's move is an attempt to clamp down on index manipulation through submitting lots of bad general play scores.
But it's a blunt instrument that flies in the face of an expressed goal of WHS that people should put in their general play scores as often as possible.

The logistics in enforcing it seem pretty onerous. How are event organisers expected to check that every entrant conforms to this rule on the morning of a competition (given that a new general play score could easily appear on their record overnight).

It strikes me that if England Golf are concerned there's some skullduggery going on, then the simplest way to deal with it is to modify the overnight index recalculation to notice that someone's record is stuffed full of poor general play scores (compared to much better competition scores) and impose an appropriate index adjustment downwards.

That’s not quite right.
EG, for their elite events where entry is balloted so that only the lowest can enter, have announced that players who have 4 or more GP scores in their record and that those scores average 2 or more shots lower than their competition score average will be denied entry into the competition.
They have done this to prevent players having very low GP scores which, in their opinion, do not reflect the players golfing ability.
It is the opposite problem in net handicap golf with manipulation being in the upward direction via GP scores. Some clubs are now insisting on a certain number of competition scores in a players record for a player to be eligible to win their comps.

 

[Crazyface]

It strikes me that if England Golf are concerned there's some skullduggery going on

Yer think? Sorry, sorry.
I, for one, have put a complaint in. I work like this....." if I've done it / thought it then loads of others have". Maybe EG have had quite a few complaints from disgruntled Open Competitors? About time too.

One way round the pairs scores being so stupid is to make the open comps both players scores to count and highest total wins. High scores may still come in, BUT they can both be docked if their scores warrant it, as both scores can be seen and properly accounted for. It happened to me in a comp at ours. I was having a great day in great company. No card in hand swishing away without a care in the world. Our pair won.......by a street. Next time I met with my mate he remarked " nice new H/C mate" "Eh? How?" Both scores to count meant a nice cut. I was chuffed, but everyone thought I'd be a bit, well, not happy. But I swaggered about like I'd just turned Pro. LOL My next round sorted that out tho'

 

[fundy]

Just seen a notice from Devon Golf that includes this:

Not sure if anyone else has already discussed this - if they have, please can you point me at the relevant thread?

Seems to me that England Golf's move is an attempt to clamp down on index manipulation through submitting lots of bad general play scores.
But it's a blunt instrument that flies in the face of an expressed goal of WHS that people should put in their general play scores as often as possible.

The logistics in enforcing it seem pretty onerous. How are event organisers expected to check that every entrant conforms to this rule on the morning of a competition (given that a new general play score could easily appear on their record overnight).

It strikes me that if England Golf are concerned there's some skullduggery going on, then the simplest way to deal with it is to modify the overnight index recalculation to notice that someone's record is stuffed full of poor general play scores (compared to much better competition scores) and impose an appropriate index adjustment downwards.

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/england-golf-general-play-restrictions.114004/

 

[cliveb]

That’s not quite right.
EG, for their elite events where entry is balloted so that only the lowest can enter, have announced that players who have 4 or more GP scores in their record and that those scores average 2 or more shots lower than their competition score average will be denied entry into the competition.
They have done this to prevent players having very low GP scores which, in their opinion, do not reflect the players golfing ability.
It is the opposite problem in net handicap golf with manipulation being in the upward direction via GP scores. Some clubs are now insisting on a certain number of competition scores in a players record for a player to be eligible to win their comps.

Oh right, so it's for elite events only? That wasn't made clear in the notice we got from Devon Golf.

Furthermore, Devon Golf's notice went on:

... we shall use the 2023 playing season as a means to conduct analysis of the handicap records of those participating both in our stroke play and in our inter-club match play competitions...
... I would be grateful if all Clubs would communicate this to their Handicap Committees, Club Captains and to all those engaged in team selection of any kind of DevonGolf inter-club events.

Again, no mention of this being only for elite competitions. That seems to imply to me that these rules may get imposed for us normal less talented players.

 

[cliveb]

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/england-golf-general-play-restrictions.114004/

OK, thanks - I had missed that thread.

 

[Swango1980]

Just seen a notice from Devon Golf that includes this:

Not sure if anyone else has already discussed this - if they have, please can you point me at the relevant thread?

Seems to me that England Golf's move is an attempt to clamp down on index manipulation through submitting lots of bad general play scores.
But it's a blunt instrument that flies in the face of an expressed goal of WHS that people should put in their general play scores as often as possible.

The logistics in enforcing it seem pretty onerous. How are event organisers expected to check that every entrant conforms to this rule on the morning of a competition (given that a new general play score could easily appear on their record overnight).

It strikes me that if England Golf are concerned there's some skullduggery going on, then the simplest way to deal with it is to modify the overnight index recalculation to notice that someone's record is stuffed full of poor general play scores (compared to much better competition scores) and impose an appropriate index adjustment downwards.

This was discussed in detail in another thread. Unless things have changed, I think that quote is very misleading. Firstly, as mentioned, this was related to elite amateur events run by England golf. Secondly, it wasn't the case that players would automatically be prohibited if they had more GP rounds than this. Rather, it was simply an added criteria that COULD be used if necessary, especially when the number of entrants exceeded the spaces available. Furthermore, I didn't think it applied if there were more than 4 GP rounds in last 20, I thought it was if more than 4 appeared in the players best 8?

 

[D-S]

This was discussed in detail in another thread. Unless things have changed, I think that quote is very misleading. Firstly, as mentioned, this was related to elite amateur events run by England golf. Secondly, it wasn't the case that players would automatically be prohibited if they had more GP rounds than this. Rather, it was simply an added criteria that COULD be used if necessary, especially when the number of entrants exceeded the spaces available. Furthermore, I didn't think it applied if there were more than 4 GP rounds in last 20, I thought it was if more than 4 appeared in the players best 8?

No it’s 4 in the most recent 20.
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/...ld-handicap-system-general-play-restrictions/

 

[Swango1980]

No it’s 4 in the most recent 20.
https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/...ld-handicap-system-general-play-restrictions/

Cheers.

Although it says that 4 in the last 20 is only the trigger for it to be looked at. It then goes on to say that any record with more than 4 GP rounds in 20 will be further assessed, to determine the difference between their Competition Score Differential and General Play differential. If this difference is more than 2 strokes (the GP being lower), then the entry can be denied (reading it on the England Golf website, the wording suggests definitely denied rather than maybe)

So, I wasn't correct that it was more than 4 in the best 8. Although, I'd imagine you'd have to have quite a few GP rounds in your best 8 to achieve more than a 2.0 differential difference?

 

[jim8flog]

When you quote headlines or extracts sometime the significant point is missed

When a particular championship has too many entries and a ballot is needed, players who have more than four general play scores in their most recent 20 will be assessed to look at the difference between their “Competition Score differential and the General Play differential”.

Where a differential of more than two strokes has been identified, the player will be told their entry into the championship has been denied.

 

[Swango1980]

When you quote headlines or extracts sometime the significant point is missed

When a particular championship has too many entries and a ballot is needed, players who have more than four general play scores in their most recent 20 will be assessed to look at the difference between their “Competition Score differential and the General Play differential”.

Where a differential of more than two strokes has been identified, the player will be told their entry into the championship has been denied.

It appears the quote from Devon Golf, in the OP, is either inaccurate, or they've misinterpreted the England Golf guidelines. It could mislead players into not submitting GP rounds, where in actual fact the guidance is really aimed at elite amateurs who submit much better GP scores that they do in competition.

Unless the OP is misquoting rather than Devon Golf?

 

[cliveb]

It appears the quote from Devon Golf, in the OP, is either inaccurate, or they've misinterpreted the England Golf guidelines. It could mislead players into not submitting GP rounds, where in actual fact the guidance is really aimed at elite amateurs who submit much better GP scores that they do in competition.

Unless the OP is misquoting rather than Devon Golf?

My quote from Devon Golf's notice is accurate.
Devon Golf's notice does include a quote as such from England Golf; it merely summarises what England Golf have done and goes on to set out what Devon intend to do about it within the county.
I have no idea if England Golf's intentions have been misinterpreted. But the notice from Devon makes no mention of being limited to elite comps.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Being pedantic over the EG quote…do EG put on anything other than elite events…the quote references ‘their events’.

 

[sweaty sock]

Sounds to me like Devon are just taking it one step further. The size of the egos around scratch team golf is staggering, so its probably driven by the players not wanting to lose their spot in the team, or county event ballot, to someone they think is a lesser player.

I doubt itll ever actually be applied...

 

[D-S]

My quote from Devon Golf's notice is accurate.
Devon Golf's notice does include a quote as such from England Golf; it merely summarises what England Golf have done and goes on to set out what Devon intend to do about it within the county.
I have no idea if England Golf's intentions have been misinterpreted. But the notice from Devon makes no mention of being limited to elite comps.

Could you please tell us what Devon Golf intend to do about it within the County - thanks.

 

[D-S]

Being pedantic over the EG quote…do EG put on anything other than elite events…the quote references ‘their events’.

Yes they run quite a few handicap competitions such as the ‘Race to Woodhall Spa’, the ‘Captains’ Series’, ‘ Australian Spoons’ etc.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Being pedantic over the EG quote…do EG put on anything other than elite events…the quote references ‘their events’.

Not just elite scratch events

Handicap events listed below,

Race to Woodhall Spa
Ping mixed and ladies bb
junior champion club
Senior series
Australian spoons
English Schools team championships

Quite a fair few handicap events.

 

[doublebogey7]

My quote from Devon Golf's notice is accurate.
Devon Golf's notice does include a quote as such from England Golf; it merely summarises what England Golf have done and goes on to set out what Devon intend to do about it within the county.
I have no idea if England Golf's intentions have been misinterpreted. But the notice from Devon makes no mention of being limited to elite comps.

See the link below if you wish to full understand. It applies to all championship competitions (not handicap run by EG. My county are not implementing it. fhttps://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/competitions/2023-championship-entry-policy.pdf

 

[rulefan]

Not just elite scratch events

Handicap events listed below,

Race to Woodhall Spa
Ping mixed and ladies bb
junior champion club
Senior series
Australian spoons
English Schools team championships

Quite a fair few handicap events.

The following policy will be piloted at England Golf Championship events (handicap competitions excluded) in 2023.

The policy will apply to the following Championships, where over-subscribed:
English Men’s Amateur Championship
English Women’s Amateur Championship
Logan Trophy
English Women’s Stroke Play Championship
English Senior Women’s Amateur
English U25 Championship
English Senior Women’s Stroke Play
English Senior Men’s Amateur
English Senior Men’s Stroke Play
Carris Trophy
English Girls U18 Championship
English U18 Championship
McGregor Trophy
English Girls U16/14 Championship
Reid Trophy