DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[duncan mackie]

I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise. First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where. But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.

it is in the Rules, you quoted them -

"The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that
might affect his play"

the Decisions are part of the Rules, and clarify issues raised when appropriate. In this case that a compass is equipment considered to gauge conditions that are considered to affect play.

another decision sets out in a little more detail some of these conditions "....gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors."

 

[Foxholer]

"I wish they would sort it out properly".

Can you define what you actually mean by 'sort it out properly'?

As far as I'm concerned, they have!

Whether I agree ith hat they have decided is a different matter, but that applies to more than this!

 

[Fellwalker]

I never said anything about it being in the rules, that was someone else.

My first post was that if you were online you could access the decisions. My second post pointed you to the website where you could find them.

I'm not sure how that was being less than helpful but whatever floats your boat.

I apologise, having thought you were that other person who had been rather abrupt continuing in the same vein.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The rules are clear but the players aren't. Is it then not incumbent upon a club to - whenever it can and in general - take active measures to prevent members inadvertently breaking the rules and either getting found out and disqualifiered or gaining a notional advantage over other competitors. If the answer to this is yes then a simple measure would be to ban all smartphones - in club competitions.

 

[Fellwalker]

Can you define what you actually mean by 'sort it out properly'?

As far as I'm concerned, they have!

Whether I agree ith hat they have decided is a different matter, but that applies to more than this!

From hundreds of posts on many forums I have investigated today, there are far too many golfers unsure, or unaware. I don't think it is sorted until that is rectified. Until Saturday I was one of those, carrying a Rules of Golf book and app, and referring to it and thinking I had complied. Until Saturday, neither I nor any of the dozen or so people I play with had been pulled up on it. (Luckily before using the app., else I'd have been out, disqualified.) Even then, I'd been pulled because I might get current temperatures on it. I'd never in a million years thought that a compass would be banned, and that therefore having a compass sensor that I cannot access directly means my phone is banned. I don't have a compass app.

What I mean is to change the wording of the paragraph which says you can use a smartphone. And certainly if a compass is against the rules, mention that in the wording. Just that one word would help, instead of it having a decision all to itself.

Appendix IV 5 could have another dot point that said Compass, or dot point 2 could say
" the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play
(e.g. compass, wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as
temperature, humidity, etc.);"

In the final paragraph of that section on p162, either take out smartphone or at least to say something along the lines of
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In
addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be
no other sensors, features or applications inbuilt or installed on the device that, if used, would be in
breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

Perhaps clubs should also help by publicising the rule at club competitions, and particularly at Open Competitions where golfers from other courses come and use an app on their phone because they do not know the course.

 

[TheDashingBlade]

Well that it is clear isn't it if you can't find a smartphone that doesn't have a compass, then they are all banned - simples

I have an old Android phone which I could customise by removing the weather and compass apps, remove SIM, even disable the cellular functionality (you'd need to to try and get 4 hours worth of GPS out of the thing). I am under the impression that as the hardware already exists on the phone that what I propose woud still fall foul of the laws.

 

[Fellwalker]

it is in the Rules, you quoted them -

"The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that
might affect his play"

the Decisions are part of the Rules, and clarify issues raised when appropriate. In this case that a compass is equipment considered to gauge conditions that are considered to affect play.

another decision sets out in a little more detail some of these conditions "....gradient, wind speed and/or direction, temperature or other environmental factors."

This is where the misunderstandings arise, as I had not read it that way. I have just checked and the foreword to the Decisions states
[FONT=&quot]The purpose of the Decisions on the Rules of Golf is to clarify matters that may not be entirely clear from the Rules of Golf. The Rules of Golf should be consulted in the first instance, but if a question cannot be answered by reference to the Rules, the solution may be found In the “Decisions book”.
We thought the question had been answered by reference to the rules, because none of us have ever thought that a compass might possibly be of use in playing golf. We'd never in our wildest imagination consider the uses suggested in the question that gave rise to the decision. In any event, the decision says
A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.
It doesn't say it can't be used for direction finding. Why did the R&A and the USGA specifically put those reasons for use into the decision? They could have just put the question as 'Can I use a compass or a compass app during a round?' But they didn't, they specified two weird situations and "some other similar reason", as if you could think of anything similar to those two ideas.
[/FONT]
I don't think they help us poor day to day golfers.

 

[Foxholer]

From hundreds of posts on many forums I have investigated today, there are far too many golfers unsure, or unaware. I don't think it is sorted until that is rectified. Until Saturday I was one of those, carrying a Rules of Golf book and app, and referring to it and thinking I had complied. Until Saturday, neither I nor any of the dozen or so people I play with had been pulled up on it. (Luckily before using the app., else I'd have been out, disqualified.) Even then, I'd been pulled because I might get current temperatures on it. I'd never in a million years thought that a compass would be banned, and that therefore having a compass sensor that I cannot access directly means my phone is banned. I don't have a compass app.

What I mean is to change the wording of the paragraph which says you can use a smartphone. And certainly if a compass is against the rules, mention that in the wording. Just that one word would help, instead of it having a decision all to itself.

Appendix IV 5 could have another dot point that said Compass, or dot point 2 could say
" the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play
(e.g. compass, wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as
temperature, humidity, etc.);"

In the final paragraph of that section on p162, either take out smartphone or at least to say something along the lines of
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only). In
addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be
no other sensors, features or applications inbuilt or installed on the device that, if used, would be in
breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

Perhaps clubs should also help by publicising the rule at club competitions, and particularly at Open Competitions where golfers from other courses come and use an app on their phone because they do not know the course.

Sorry, but all you are stating there is that when you read the Rules you either didn't understand it properly or that you don't understand the capability of your Phone!

The wording of the Rule etc. is quite deliberately general - so that it doesn't need to be amended in the future.

All you are really pointing out/discovering is that many folk don't actually know the Rules! Stick around here for a while and you will be astounded or maybe not) at some of the myths that otherwise sensible folk come out with!

With respect to the DMDs though. You were obviously caught in time. But another way Clubs could help is to post a very large sign in plain view to specify.....

There are currently no phones that act as DMDs that are compliant with the DMD Rules.

Consequently, use of Phones as DMD will render the user liable to Disqualification in any Club Competition.

Committee

Btw. There are a number of specific DMDs that are also non-compliant. One, very expensive one, even has a device that locks the offending feature, but that does not allow it to be compliant!

As posted earlier, you are welcome to use Smartfones as DMDs in bounce/friendly games if you wish as there are plenty of other 'breaches' allowed there.

 

[Fish]

This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.

 

[Imurg]

This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.

I would probably change the word "some" to " most" if not "all" but other than that:thup:

I would also add that it is up to the user to determine and if necessary prove, conformity.

 

[Hacker Khan]

To anyone reading this thread who is thinking of having a go at golf, then please be reassured that the rules of golf are not that silly and complicated*.

Yes you get the odd occasion where a pro playing the game for most of their life, their caddie and the match referee following the players do not know a rule. And are then pulled up 4 hours after the event by some armchair saddo who knows the rules inside out and takes great pleasure in pointing out to people that they have broken a rule.

But in general golfers are happy go lucky types who would cut someone a lot of slack, and in no way would accuse someone of cheating if they have mistakenly not understood one of the 3000 pages of rules around things like rabbit holes and being able to measure the pressure on your smart phone. And it's a lie to say that there's nothing a golfer likes more than pointing out that someone has broken one of these rules, especially if it's in a comp.



* I lied.

 

[Fellwalker]

Sorry, but all you are stating there is that when you read the Rules you either didn't understand it properly or that you don't understand the capability of your Phone!

The wording of the Rule etc. is quite deliberately general - so that it doesn't need to be amended in the future.

It is not that I didn't understand the capabilities of my phone so much as that if I had, I'd never have thought of a compass being used to measure wind direction or the grain of a green! Hence I had no reason to look further than the Rules as published in the Rules of Golf book. Today, I have learned from the hundreds of forum posts about how misleading the rule book is, and that there is a clarification by the R&A. The Decisions seems to be something all serious golfers who would like to comply need access to. I have even found that the decision on the compass was in the previous Decisions book, but they've kept the Rules vague.

 

[Foxholer]

This is taken from my clubs Rule of Play:


Distance Measuring Devices. (Local Rule)

Players may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. However, if, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect his play (such as gradient, wind - speed, direction, temperature etc.) the player is in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification,
regardless of whether any such additional functions are actually used.

Some mobile phones with measuring capabilities may put you in breach of the rule.


I think that is correct, isn't it, although I see mobiles being used all the time but like Chris, I don't point it out as it only leads to confrontation.

I'd change 'is designed' to 'has the inherent capability'!

And add my comment about there being no known examples of compliant phones.

 

[rosecott]

Excellent. Please would you tell me where? When I searched I got results for the physical book.

I find the Decisions on the USGA website more user-friendly.

 

[duncan mackie]

I'd change 'is designed' to 'has the inherent capability'!

And add my comment about there being no known examples of compliant phones.

if you did that you would have to get R&A approval for the LR - as it stands Fish's LR is the approved LR for DMD's, with the addition of the additional sentence.

 

[Hobbit]

I find it hilarious that so many people who decried the use of belly putters and broom handle putters take the opposite view when it affects them personally.

The rule seems clear to me but there's so many people twisting and turning around the semantics of it...

Dedicated DMD = fine. Smartphone = not fine.

 

[timd77]

How ironic that the r&a prohibit the use of a smartphone app to determine distance, but have produced their own rules app that could be consulted during a round! :cheers:

 

[duncan mackie]

How ironic that the r&a prohibit the use of a smartphone app to determine distance, but have produced their own rules app that could be consulted during a round! :cheers:

1. they don't prohibit it. someone will produce a compliant handset at some point (one - other than the early iPhone model that complies - may even exist now)
2. don't understand the reference to irony, you are permitted to consult all sorts of 'apps' on an electronic device during a round.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

1. they don't prohibit it. someone will produce a compliant handset at some point (one - other than the early iPhone model that complies - may even exist now)
2. don't understand the reference to irony, you are permitted to consult all sorts of 'apps' on an electronic device during a round.

The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?

 

[Foxholer]

if you did that you would have to get R&A approval for the LR - as it stands Fish's LR is the approved LR for DMD's, with the addition of the additional sentence.

Oops. As that's the specimen LR, that's 'fine'.

All I was doing was reflecting the Rule - that doesn't include the word 'Design'. In some cases, things aren't 'designed' to do things, but are later found to be capable of doing so. It's the sort of thing that Tax Accountants look for in new laws/regulations!

In this (extremely pedantic perhaps) case, a feature not designed to be a compass could well be harnessed to do so. hile it might not breach the LR, it would still breach the actual rules - which make no reference to 'design'.

The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?

Because you are not using the phone as a DMD. It's not the Phone per se that is banned, it's its use as a DMD!

And if you are actually using the Compass, either inbuilt or through T'internet, then it comes under the general 14-3 Artificial Devices rule