DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[stevie_r]

You are preaching to a large number of the already converted on that one I'm afraid.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I have tried course planners bought at various courses I have visited, but my experience is that every one of them had errors, or was out of date such that it meant I went in a new bunker or hit what my shot saver told me was the right distance to find it had changed. On one course in Scotland, we went up the wrong fairway because we had no compass and the map was misleading. I've had difficulty several times knowing where to go, despite planners, and I have given up buying them.

Ah well - that's me knacked - I can't trust the distance markers on the course and I can't trust the course planner. What do I do now to get the factual info a DMD or golf app would give me - if I don't buy a DMD or have such an app. Seems I will have to accept that these things will give their users an advantage over me - which is a pity. I'll go quietly...

 

[duncan mackie]

I read this thread having searched the web for why I'd been told I could not use my phone. The title of the thread says it for me - "I wish they would sort it properly"

The Rules of Golf state very specifically
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."

Why mention a smartphone, when there only appear to be ancient devices (iPhone 3G is mentioned above, which was sold from 2008 to 2010) that actually comply? These are the rules 2012 - 2015.

The rule does not mention compass or barometer, though both of those are mentioned in the thread several times as if they are the rule.

The rules says I cannot use any device or equipment
a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or
b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that
might affect his play

........

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly".

you seem to be confusing the clarity of the rules with how you think the rules should rule.

your post indicates that you clearly understand the rule - but equally clearly don't like, or agree with it.

you are not alone.

for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.

 

[Fellwalker]

Since initially posting I have re-read the R&A November 2009 statement. It specifically mentions a device with a compass but says that if this is only accessible via internet, it is OK. So if I have a mapping app like Open Street Maps or Sygic or TomTom, even if I do not use them, I cannot use my phone as a DMD. If I only ever use google or bing maps, and have not downloaded any of their maps for offline usage, and don't use them while playing, I'm OK.

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly". Compass should be included in the specimen local rule, and clubs need to publicise it. In effect, phones should be banned which would make it a lot clearer, and destroy an awful lot of businesses making and selling such apps.

 

[Fellwalker]

for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.

That was NOT in my edition of Rules of Golf 2012-2015. I searched for compass and it was not there. I have just checked.
The layout of your posting suggests that you may be quoting from the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, to which I do not have access. I've seen one once at a golf club about 60 miles away.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

The rules are clear...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

Whether you, I or anyone likes them or not is another question.

 

[woody69]

you seem to be confusing the clarity of the rules with how you think the rules should rule.

your post indicates that you clearly understand the rule - but equally clearly don't like, or agree with it.

you are not alone.

for someone so adept at quoting the rules you seem to miss some rather clear ones.........

14-3/4
Use of Compass During Round

Q.A player uses a compass during a round to assist him in determining wind direction or the direction of the grain in the greens or for some other similar reason. Is the player in breach of Rule 14-3?

A.Yes. A compass is considered to be an artificial device and must not be used for these purposes.

Can someone explain to me how knowing that the grain of the green heads exactly North North West (or whatever) might assist me?

 

[ger147]

That was NOT in my edition of Rules of Golf 2012-2015. I searched for compass and it was not there. I have just checked.
The layout of your posting suggests that you may be quoting from the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, to which I do not have access. I've seen one once at a golf club about 60 miles away.

If you are on the internet you have access to them.

 

[Fellwalker]

The rules are clear...

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

Whether you, I or anyone likes them or not is another question.

It is not whether I like them, but whether the R&A have done sufficient to make them clear to the average golfer. Putting the statement
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."
in the rule book suggests that a smartphone can be used. Until I looked I did not know mine had a compass, thinking it only got that information when using GPS in a navigation app. Having looked into it, I cannot find a current phone that is without a compass.
So, in my humble opinion, smartphones should be out.

I admit I don't like the rule, but having found it, I will now comply. There is no point playing golf unless you follow the rules. BUT, I know that there will be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of golfers out there now, who will be using smartphones oblivious to the fact of their device's non-conformity.

 

[Fellwalker]

If you are on the internet you have access to them.

Excellent. Please would you tell me where? When I searched I got results for the physical book.

 

[ger147]

Excellent. Please would you tell me where? When I searched I got results for the physical book.

On the R&A website.

They also, ironically enough, sell a phone app with all of the rules & decisions included.

 

[Foxholer]

Since initially posting I have re-read the R&A November 2009 statement. It specifically mentions a device with a compass but says that if this is only accessible via internet, it is OK. So if I have a mapping app like Open Street Maps or Sygic or TomTom, even if I do not use them, I cannot use my phone as a DMD. If I only ever use google or bing maps, and have not downloaded any of their maps for offline usage, and don't use them while playing, I'm OK.

So, R&A, "I wish you would sort it out properly". Compass should be included in the specimen local rule, and clubs need to publicise it. In effect, phones should be banned which would make it a lot clearer, and destroy an awful lot of businesses making and selling such apps.

It's not the presence or absence of Apps. It's the presence or absence of hardware (or a combination of hardware/firmware/softare) that provides the function of compass (in this case). Iphone 3G does not have a built in compass - but an App can use GPS to simulate it! 3GS has a built in 'compass' - though not the traditional type as a magnet would screw things up internally!

It's only in competitions that these devices are banned. Plenty of use in non-comp rounds. Pros and Pro Caddies certainly use Bushnells etc in practice rounds even though they are not allowed in the Tournament!

The reference Duncan pointed to is one of the Decisions. If you check the online version of Rules, you should be able to see that - on your phone perhaps even.

Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!

 

[Fellwalker]

On the R&A website.

They also, ironically enough, sell a phone app with all of the rules & decisions included.

Ah, it is not there as such, it is part of the "Rules Explorer" which I had taken to be an online version of the rules, because that is what is says it is. I did not look further because I already had the pictured guides and had searched them. BUT it is in fact also the Decisions. So again, back to the original title of this thread - "I wish they would sort it out properly".

 

[ger147]

Ah, it is not there as such, it is part of the "Rules Explorer" which I had taken to be an online version of the rules, because that is what is says it is. I did not look further because I already had the pictured guides and had searched them. BUT it is in fact also the Decisions. So again, back to the original title of this thread - "I wish they would sort it out properly".
View attachment 6919

So in fact it IS there as I said previously.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

It is not whether I like them, but whether the R&A have done sufficient to make them clear to the average golfer. Putting the statement
"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a
distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application
that meets all of the above limitations (i.e. it must measure distance only)."
in the rule book suggests that a smartphone can be used. Until I looked I did not know mine had a compass, thinking it only got that information when using GPS in a navigation app. Having looked into it, I cannot find a current phone that is without a compass.
So, in my humble opinion, smartphones should be out.

I admit I don't like the rule, but having found it, I will now comply. There is no point playing golf unless you follow the rules. BUT, I know that there will be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of golfers out there now, who will be using smartphones oblivious to the fact of their device's non-conformity.

Well that it is clear isn't it if you can't find a smartphone that doesn't have a compass, then they are all banned - simples

 

[Hacker Khan]

I can't believe the ruling body of golf have introduced another rule for people to worry about that many people see as antiquated and pointless.

Still, it's another thing for those thinking of trying out the game to remember, make sure your socks are knee length and white, make sure you don't have business socks on with shorts, make sure your phone can not read atmospheric pressure. Splendid.

 

[Fellwalker]

Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!

Exactly my point. But the R&A have that piece in the rules saying that you can use a smartphone if..., even though you can't find a current one that you can use. Even my previous phone, an HTC HD2 from 2009 has a compass, with an app built in. I wish I had not sold my HP iPAQ hx4700 as it did not have any useful sensors apart from GPS. It could not access the internet except on wi-fi. That would have been compliant, and I used to use my Freecaddie Pro on it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nobody has yet shown any phone to be truly compliant with the Rules on DMD so, until they do, ALL Phones should be considered to be non-compliant!

^^^This :thup: Simple.

 

[Fellwalker]

So in fact it IS there as I said previously.

I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise. First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where. But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.

 

[ger147]

I'm sure you were trying to be helpful but I found your responses otherwise. First you said it was in the rules (which it isn't), then you said "If you are on the internet you have access to them", then you said it was on the R&A site but did not suggest where. But thank you all the same for pointing out that the issue of a compass has been covered by the R&A.

I never said anything about it being in the rules, that was someone else.

My first post was that if you were online you could access the decisions. My second post pointed you to the website where you could find them.

I'm not sure how that was being less than helpful but whatever floats your boat.