DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[duncan mackie]

The point timd77 makes is a good one though. Why are you allowed to consult the rules app on a phone that has a compass but you can't consult your GPS app for your distances?

because the rules have been written accepting that you cannot ban people using phones (don't let's get into club practices, the simple situation in common law is that you can't - look at the issue in schools if you want to see more).

however, if you use a phone as a DMD the rules applicable to DMD's apply to the phone.

if you look at the growth in non-conforming DMD development (and more scarily sales as well now) you can see exactly why such rules were put in place when DMD's were first implemented.

I'd probably go further to suggest that the general increase in the sales of non conforming golf equipment overall has to be a cause for concern. however, whilst the use of a heated head cover, or illegally groved wedge, is a matter of fact, the pushing of a button on an electronic device to activate a non conforming feature is seen as a 'risk' to far (even within a game that maintains it's fully based on an individuals responsibility to police themselves). Whilst the same button can exist, and be used, on a non-DMD device, it's only really their use in association with accurate distance information that creates a meaningful benefit (as many comment on this thread and others highlight - knowing the exact barometric pressure and temperature rather than just it's dry and hot, or I'm at 5000ft here, can easily be used by an electronic device to adjust and deliver exact playing distances in the same way as slope indicators for slopes.


Turn the whole thing around and you see that DMD's were permitted to enable the average player to play most courses with the best yardage chart that could be purchased - the rules around them are there to ensure it's that, and no more.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

because the rules have been written accepting that you cannot ban people using phones (don't let's get into club practices, the simple situation in common law is that you can't - look at the issue in schools if you want to see more).

however, if you use a phone as a DMD the rules applicable to DMD's apply to the phone.

if you look at the growth in non-conforming DMD development (and more scarily sales as well now) you can see exactly why such rules were put in place when DMD's were first implemented.

I'd probably go further to suggest that the general increase in the sales of non conforming golf equipment overall has to be a cause for concern. however, whilst the use of a heated head cover, or illegally groved wedge, is a matter of fact, the pushing of a button on an electronic device to activate a non conforming feature is seen as a 'risk' to far (even within a game that maintains it's fully based on an individuals responsibility to police themselves). Whilst the same button can exist, and be used, on a non-DMD device, it's only really their use in association with accurate distance information that creates a meaningful benefit (as many comment on this thread and others highlight - knowing the exact barometric pressure and temperature rather than just it's dry and hot, or I'm at 5000ft here, can easily be used by an electronic device to adjust and deliver exact playing distances in the same way as slope indicators for slopes.


Turn the whole thing around and you see that DMD's were permitted to enable the average player to play most courses with the best yardage chart that could be purchased - the rules around them are there to ensure it's that, and no more.

And from a technogoly perspective I fully agree. If the R&A were to let technology in for anything even vaguely otehr than distance measuring then the manufacturers would be there with all sorts of non-confiorming devices doing this and that - then raising issues of restraint of trade. Now get enough non-conforming devices out there and players using them and getting away with it and we're stuffed - the cat would be out of the bag.

 

[timd77]

I was being a little tongue in cheek, but what I keep reading on here is that DMDs are baaaaad because you could also check your compass at the same time. What's to stop you quickly checking your compass at the same time as consulting the r&s rules app about x,y or?

By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!

I had a look at dedicated range finders, garmin watches etc last night, and they're all a pricey bit of kit, especially bearing in mind the app I've got on my phone was free.

Anyway, sounds like we're flogging a dead horse here.

 

[duncan mackie]

Now get enough non-conforming devices out there and players using them and getting away with it and we're stuffed - the cat would be out of the bag.

there are already a huge number of NC Lazer DMD's already on the market - and the NC bit isn't exactly in large letters on the specs, if it exists at all!

for example

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3-se.cfm

cunningly, rather than highlight that this isn't legal in competition play - but I take the inference from phrases like 'see what the tour players see' and it's name that it will be - they say nothing.

but for the legal version they add the little logo saying Legal for Competition Play

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3.cfm

I suspect many people would wouldn't realise the issues, and wouldn't be too happy being DQ'd for using one!

 

[Foxholer]

By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!

I agree! The only attribute I see as being helpful is 'slope'. Temperature I can feel. Wind I can feel - and it's probably not the same 50 yards away anyway, Humidity/Barometric data - Pah! Compass? Well, it's actually on the Course Guide! And if I can see the sun, I can work it out too.

But Rules is Rules - and Bushnell, Garmin and SkyCaddie stay in the Golf business!

 

[stevie_r]

I was being a little tongue in cheek, but what I keep reading on here is that DMDs are baaaaad because you could also check your compass at the same time. What's to stop you quickly checking your compass at the same time as consulting the r&s rules app about x,y or?

By the way, even if I knew that the wind was blowing slightly north west north or whatever, I wouldn't have the foggiest what impact that would have on my shot, and even if I did, I very much doubt I would be able to interpret that information into a better shot. And which way the grass is growing on the green? Do me a favour!

I had a look at dedicated range finders, garmin watches etc last night, and they're all a pricey bit of kit, especially bearing in mind the app I've got on my phone was free.

Anyway, sounds like we're flogging a dead horse here.

If you hang around the forum long enough you will see it flogged about every 4 months

 

[cookelad]

If you hang around the forum long enough you will see it flogged about every 4 months

It's actually quite a surprise this hasn't been moved to the "For Sale" section!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

there are already a huge number of NC Lazer DMD's already on the market - and the NC bit isn't exactly in large letters on the specs, if it exists at all!

for example

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3-se.cfm

cunningly, rather than highlight that this isn't legal in competition play - but I take the inference from phrases like 'see what the tour players see' and it's name that it will be - they say nothing.

but for the legal version they add the little logo saying Legal for Competition Play

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/laser/tourv3.cfm

I suspect many people would wouldn't realise the issues, and wouldn't be too happy being DQ'd for using one!

And before long all those manufacturing and owning a NC device will be pressurising the R&A to change the rules to allow their use - simply on the basis that many golfers own them and there will be 'big business' built around them that continued refusal to allow them would amount to restraint of trade etc etc.

And it doesn't matter that folk don't see what advantage knowing slope or windf direction etc would give them. That is just not the point.

The R&A have allowed devices for the purpose of measuring distance - and that is it. We may not know how today - but if measurements of slope, humidity and wind direction etc are allowed on devices then the techologists will work out how to use them to give the golfer an advantage.

For instance: On the indoor digital practice faciliity you have spents hours and hours practicing and for each club you get recorded launch angles, ball spin etc. and within the facility you can key in wind speed and direction, temperature, humidity etc. This is all uploaded to your Cloud storage.

And so to the golf course and the 1st tee. Your gizmo measures humidity, temperature, wind speed and direction. First off it tells you which ball to use to match the conditions - balls have been designed to map onto conditions as well as you swing and ball striking characteristics - and which club to use given where you want to end up off the tee - and which tee peg to use - all based on data downloaded from the practice data held in your Cloud storage. The gizmo then tells you your aim point as it has a very detailed course planner that includes aim points (including aim pioints at features not actually on the course).

So your gizmo tells you the ball you should use, the tee peg you should use, the club you should use and your aim point and whether to use your full, three-quarter or half swing.

 

[pbrown7582]

And before long all those manufacturing and owning a NC device will be pressurising the R&A to change the rules to allow their use - simply on the basis that many golfers own them and there will be 'big business' built around them that continued refusal to allow them would amount to restraint of trade etc etc.

And it doesn't matter that folk don't see what advantage knowing slope or windf direction etc would give them. That is just not the point.

The R&A have allowed devices for the purpose of measuring distance - and that is it. We may not know how today - but if measurements of slope, humidity and wind direction etc are allowed on devices then the techologists will work out how to use them to give the golfer an advantage.

Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.

 

[Foxholer]

Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.

He was on one of the 'Undercover CEO' programs and stated something along the lines of 'It's getting harder and harder to sell customers gear they don't need'!

That demonstrates, at least to me, the approach TM has!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not quite related to the DMD bimonthly debate, although its is straight forward really! but more on the NC kit the TM CEO has been on record bemoaning the rules himself as he wants to sell bucket loads of NC drivers etc.

Well there are a few of debates - (1) whether DMDs , GPS thingies. smartphones with apps etc should be allowed in club comps at all - (2) which measurements these gizmos can provide should be allowed to be used - (3) whether switching off apps on smartphones is sufficient to make them compliant as DMDs.

And there are probaby more

All I'm saying on issue (2) is that if you are allowed to carrty devices that provide all sort of info other than distance then though it may not be of much use today, some smart technologist will work out a way of making it all useful. It is essential the R&A hold the line on Only distance measurement available on a device - Absolutely nothing else - else they are opening things up for a technological free for all.

 

[User 105]

I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers released each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!

 

[cookelad]

I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers TaylorMade release each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!

Corrected that for you!

 

[User 105]

lol, spot on

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't know why they don't just do a confirming list just like they do with drivers, balls & grooves etc.

That way there is no doubt if it's legal or not. If it's on the list you're fine.

ok, a bit of extra work to asses and maintain the list. But compared to the number of drivers released each year, the quantity of conforming DMD's is minute !!!

They have! It's just manufacturers are trying to get so many of their multi-function NC gizmo sold that clubs will have problems telling their users they can't be used. And golfers are buying them expecting to be allowed to use them either now or eventually - then kicking up a fuss when they are not. What a waste of money - indeed.

 

[sev112]

So your gizmo tells you the ball you should use, the tee peg you should use, the club you should use and your aim point and whether to use your full, three-quarter or half swing.

Thes gizmos are already allowed
They are called caddies
Why shouldn't this info be provided by gizmo if itis already allowed by caddy?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thes gizmos are already allowed
They are called caddies
Why shouldn't this info be provided by gizmo if itis already allowed by caddy?

Because we can't all afford a caddy...

and a caddy won't be able to match your practice game to the conditions of the day - and match the specific ball for you to use on each hole according to the conditions at that precise moment - where the ball is matched to your detailed practice data gathered through practice in simulated weather conditions of all sorts.

 

[Foxholer]

Because we can't all afford a caddy...

You missed the point! You are actually in agreement!

And a Caddie also isn't allowed to use Compass. thermometer, Anemometer, Altimeter or Barometer either!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sorry - I think you missed my point.

If you relax rules beyond absolutely only distance being available to the golfer then technology will be developed to use it - even if today we cant see how it could be used to make a difference.

The player or caddy would have access to all the data that future indoor practice facilities will be able to gather about your shots - played under a whole variety of simulated weather conditions. Golf ball technology will be developed to take advantage of the link up between practice data gathered and held in the cloud and conditions as you stand on a tee or at any place on the course - so fior instance you will carry a whole raft of different golf balls from which on each hole your technology tells you which one to use. The technology also determines the absolutely correct aimpoint according to ball and club it tells you to use and the wind speed and direction.

After every shot you play data is gathered about your swing, ball strike characteristics and results and that data is uploaded to the cloud to update the practice data so that the data used to guide you on every shot is updated on an ongoing basis to reflect how you are playing on that day.

Couldn't/wouldn't happen? Why not - open the technologvy pandora's box.

 

[duncan mackie]

Sorry - I think you missed my point.

If you relax rules beyond absolutely only distance being available to the golfer then technology will be developed to use it - even if today we cant see how it could be used to make a difference.

The player or caddy would have access to all the data that future indoor practice facilities will be able to gather about your shots - played under a whole variety of simulated weather conditions. Golf ball technology will be developed to take advantage of the link up between practice data gathered and held in the cloud and conditions as you stand on a tee or at any place on the course - so fior instance you will carry a whole raft of different golf balls from which on each hole your technology tells you which one to use. The technology also determines the absolutely correct aimpoint according to ball and club it tells you to use and the wind speed and direction.

After every shot you play data is gathered about your swing, ball strike characteristics and results and that data is uploaded to the cloud to update the practice data so that the data used to guide you on every shot is updated on an ongoing basis to reflect how you are playing on that day.

Couldn't/wouldn't happen? Why not - open the technologvy pandora's box.

personally I already play this way - if I hit my first 9 iron 146 carry I tend to adjust my distances with the remaining irons from there on in......although it's even better than that because the warm up range runs parallel to the first hole so the days conditions are pretty much dialled in straight away (although they change at times!)